Sports and the importance of size debate

[JAB5239]

Heavyweights are unique in boxing in that unlike capped weight classes, they've grown bigger with each 20 year block, and sure as ****, size is a "skill" in and of itself. So the "dufus cutoff" continously is nudged upward.

But mass alone doesn't overcome all the other important factors involved such as decade over decade decreases in subtile skill....the thing that experienced trainers have talked about for decades. Time traveling George Foreman who won the gold in 68' and came back to win the title in the 1990s offers a single glimpse of what they're taling about.

Repeating myself, I have tremendous respect for the overall compitency of Wladimir Klitschko, although, provocative statements suchlike "Hitting a chinny man like Carrera so many times before the ref stopped to or taking a bipedal punching bag like Abe Simon 11 rounds means jack carp" serve only to undercut Dr. Z'S argument. Entirely.
Absolutely entirely.

The reality is that a ranked Primo Carnera was repeatedly hit flush by a man big and fast and powerful enough at 200 to KO anyone ever, and Carnera kept getting up for more. I saw almost all of the best "modern giants" felled by lesser punchers and fewer punches.
If Abe Simon could find a way to Nail Jersey Joe Walcott and knock him out, he could be expected to do the very same to anyone that Pele Reid or Ross Puritty could find. Call it hyperbole returned in kind.

I respect today's fighters and I know many of them, but people haven't gotten better at fighting in the past 80 years. Not under MOQ rules.

The weird reframe about "No Eastern Europeans" participating prior to the 21st century is specious and devoid of study. Fighters come from places changing based on economic and political conditions producing a climate for making money from the public display of Prizefighting. We can take a deeper dive at anyone's request, but for now, know that Eastern European participation simply fills a void left by cultural decrease in participation in the US, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, France, Japan, Korea, Argentina, Spain, and other former boxing hotbeds when economics have improved.

And in addition, check out the ethnicities of those 1900 - 1960 immigrants to the US who filled the ranks of professional boxing. Today, eastern Europeans can simply get their start in their home country instead of in their new country- the only difference.

All things to be considered.

Great post. Much more eloquently put than I could hope to do. Your insight and knowledge are appreciated.

[Dr. Z]

Great post. Much more eloquently put than I could hope to do. Your insight and knowledge are appreciated.

Yes, lets us talk skills IF you think size, height and reach matter ( they do ) at heavyweight. In you opinion do the skills of Carnera and Simon match those of Bowe, Lewis, Klitschko , and even Fury?

Good insight is appreciated!

[JAB5239]

Yes, lets us talk skills IF you think size, height and reach matter ( they do ) at heavyweight. In you opinion do the skills of Carnera and Simon match those of Bowe, Lewis, Klitschko , and even Fury?

Good insight is appreciated!

What's the point? No matter what's said you're just going to say it's untrue or change the question to something else. Don't forget Buddy and Max Baer.

[Dr. Z]

What's the point? No matter what's said you're just going to say it's untrue or change the question to something else. Don't forget Buddy and Max Baer.

Duck the questions as you usually do. It tells the readers everything.

[Rockin']

Yes, lets us talk skills IF you think size, height and reach matter ( they do ) at heavyweight. In you opinion do the skills of Carnera and Simon match those of Bowe, Lewis, Klitschko , and even Fury?

Not even close, Carnera gets hammered by those fighters mentioned...................Rockin'

[QueensburyRules]

Which Eastern Europeans SHOULD HE HAVE FOUGHT?

Lewis had defended his light heavyweight title against the number 1 contender Al Gainer just 3 months before he challenged Louis.
John Henry beat 46 men who were over the light heavyweight limit!

Including
Gastana
Ray
Risko
Barry
Burman
Perroni
Reddish
Ettore
He developed a detached retina, he wasn't blind , you bloody CRETIN !

- - Nice to see you finally found a topic you could sink your teeth into with veracity.

John Henry also knocked out the great Satchel Paige if we wish to further embellish his formidable accomplishments...

[Willie Pep 229]

Has anyone actually looked close at Primo Carnera? Or is he merely (even on this board) defined by his connections to the mob, Hollywood, and legend, only.

All we ever see is highlights, him rolling on the canvas with Baer as we're suspose to laugh.

Has anyone studied his skill level, evaluated his resume, given him a second look?

[QueensburyRules]

Has anyone actually looked close at Primo Carnera? Or is he merely (even on this board) defined by his connections to the mob, Hollywood, and legend, only.

All we ever see is highlights, him rolling on the canvas with Baer as we're suspose to laugh.

Has anyone studied his skill level, evaluated his resume, given him a second look?

- - Point one: Boxing often eviscerates it's own, in this case with mob associations while ignoring their own mob associations.

Point two: Primo by his numbers and opponents is one of the top heavies of his day, the only one of his peers not in the IBHOF.

Point three: Primo is portrayed falsely as a slow, lumbering clod, when in fact he was amazingly light on his feet and usually trying to box rather than slug from limited footage I've seen. He was not some unthinking savage beast but rather taken aback over the deaths attributed to him.

Point four: The Baer fight was Baer not respecting the neutral corner rule, hence the massive knockdown numbers.

Point five: Sick with kidney disease robbing him of vitality, he returned to Italy to fight a guerilla war against Mussolini, ie his bravery is beyond question...

[Bundana]

mass alone doesn't overcome all the other important factors involved such as decade over decade decreases in subtile skill....the thing that experienced trainers have talked about for decades. Time traveling George Foreman who won the gold in 68' and came back to win the title in the 1990s offers a single glimpse of what they're taling about.

If I have learned one thing, after 60 years as a fan of this sport... it is to take the opinions of oldtimers (trainers, reporters or the boxers themselves), with a huge pinch of salt!

[Ivich]

- - Point one: Boxing often eviscerates it's own, in this case with mob associations while ignoring their own mob associations.

Point two: Primo by his numbers and opponents is one of the top heavies of his day, the only one of his peers not in the IBHOF.

Point three: Primo is portrayed falsely as a slow, lumbering clod, when in fact he was amazingly light on his feet and usually trying to box rather than slug from limited footage I've seen. He was not some unthinking savage beast but rather taken aback over the deaths attributed to him.

Point four: The Baer fight was Baer not respecting the neutral corner rule, hence the massive knockdown numbers.

Point five: Sick with kidney disease robbing him of vitality, he returned to Italy to fight a guerilla war against Mussolini, ie his bravery is beyond question...

There are plenty of pictures of Primo in black *******i uniform giving the ******* salute. Nothing wrong with his ticker though.