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The best old-school bare knucklers, and what we know about them (London ring rules)

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    The best old-school bare knucklers, and what we know about them (London ring rules)

    We have to remember, before television, before the Marquess of the queensbury - there was the London ring rules. They had champions, reigns and a dense pool of competition. fighting was a trade more than an event. The styles they would have likely used would be similar to the early 1900's, with Johnson, Jeffries, Langford etc - a mixture of grappling and punching - long rounds and a real emphasis on "hurting" the other guy, not out boxing him. That being said, what do we really know?

    Chat GPT with the "deep research" option gave me this. I also have a book, BOXING: A GUIDE TO MODERN METHODS

    It goes into some detail on the best bare knucklers. It seems to hold them in pretty high regard alongside fighters that were modern during the books printing year. (Dempsey, Tunney and Greb). Some of these guys look like old napoleonic war veterans from the Grande Armee. They look made of stone. many of them seem to carry Grins on their faces, a bit sadistic looking. A lot of them also died very young. The book also seems to mention boxing fatalities as being more common. or at least thats the impression I get.

    ​


    1. Jem Mace (1831-1910) "The Father of Modern Boxing"
    • Known for skill, defense, and introducing footwork into bare-knuckle fighting.
    • Won the English heavyweight title in 1861.
    • Career lasted decades; fought in England, the U.S., and Australia.
    • Bridged bare-knuckle and gloved eras.
    2. John L. Sullivan (1858-1918) "The Boston Strong Boy"
    • Last major bare-knuckle champion; first gloved heavyweight champion.
    • Won the final sanctioned bare-knuckle title fight in 1889 vs. Jake Kilrain (75 rounds).
    • Powerful, charismatic, and a cultural icon of the era.
    3. Tom Sayers (1826-1865)
    • English lightweight/heavyweight with unmatched toughness.
    • Famous for his 1860 draw with American champion John C. Heenan (considered the first international title fight).
    • Small for a heavyweight but fought much larger men and earned legendary respect.
    4. James "Deaf" Burke (1809-1845)
    • Notable for incredible durability and size for his time.
    • Won and lost the English title in grueling wars.
    • Fought Simon Byrne to the death (Byrne died days later).
    5. Tom Cribb (1781-1848)
    • Dominated the sport in the early 1800s.
    • Twice defeated American Tom Molineaux, a former slave and fierce contender.
    • Considered a British national hero and symbol of strength.
    6. Tom Molineaux (1784-1818)
    • African-American former slave who gained fame in England.
    • Nearly beat Cribb in 1810, a controversial fight many believed he won.
    • Fought with intelligence, speed, and ferocity.
    7. Daniel Mendoza (1764-1836) "The Father of Scientific Boxing"
    • Introduced defense, angles, and strategy to what had previously been brawling.
    • ***ish-English boxer who broke barriers and changed the sport tactically.
    8. Jack Broughton (c. 1704-1789) "The Father of the English Ring"
    • Created the first set of boxing rules in 1743 to reduce fatalities.
    • First true organized champion and boxing theorist.
    9. Ben Caunt (1815-1861)
    • Towering for his era; rival of Sayers and Burke.
    • Fought in some of the era most brutal contests.
    10. Joe Coburn (1835-1890)
    • Irish-American fighter, known for clean fighting and resilience.
    • Held the American heavyweight title and drew with John Heenan.
    Anyhow, what does anyone know about these guys, and how did they fight. how did they train? I understand the bouts were extremely long. Yes they knew how to pace themselves, and could grapple as defense - but that fact is the combat lasted an extremely long time - and would require immense toughness and know-how to survive and make a career out of it. imo I would not under estimate these guys even though I haven't seen them fight.
    Last edited by them_apples; 06-29-2025, 09:43 PM.

    #2
    I love this kind of discussion. I know them all, from recalling the images of their faces to their biographical briefs. I'm not proud of that, kind of geeked, but that's what it is. When I get a moment, I'll contribute something.
    them_apples them_apples likes this.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by them_apples View Post
      We have to remember, before television, before the Marquess of the queensbury - there was the London ring rules. They had champions, reigns and a dense pool of competition. fighting was a trade more than an event. The styles they would have likely used would be similar to the early 1900's, with Johnson, Jeffries, Langford etc - a mixture of grappling and punching - long rounds and a real emphasis on "hurting" the other guy, not out boxing him. That being said, what do we really know?

      Chat GPT with the "deep research" option gave me this. I also have a book, BOXING: A GUIDE TO MODERN METHODS

      It goes into some detail on the best bare knucklers. It seems to hold them in pretty high regard alongside fighters that were modern during the books printing year. (Dempsey, Tunney and Greb). Some of these guys look like old napoleonic war veterans from the Grande Armee. They look made of stone. many of them seem to carry Grins on their faces, a bit sadistic looking. A lot of them also died very young. The book also seems to mention boxing fatalities as being more common. or at least thats the impression I get.

      ÃÂÃÂÃÂâÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃÂÃ?br />

      1. Jem Mace (1831-1910) "The Father of Modern Boxing"
      • Known for skill, defense, and introducing footwork into bare-knuckle fighting.
      • Won the English heavyweight title in 1861.
      • Career lasted decades; fought in England, the U.S., and Australia.
      • Bridged bare-knuckle and gloved eras.
      2. John L. Sullivan (1858-1918) "The Boston Strong Boy"
      • Last major bare-knuckle champion; first gloved heavyweight champion.
      • Won the final sanctioned bare-knuckle title fight in 1889 vs. Jake Kilrain (75 rounds).
      • Powerful, charismatic, and a cultural icon of the era.
      3. Tom Sayers (1826-1865)
      • English lightweight/heavyweight with unmatched toughness.
      • Famous for his 1860 draw with American champion John C. Heenan (considered the first international title fight).
      • Small for a heavyweight but fought much larger men and earned legendary respect.
      4. James "Deaf" Burke (1809-1845)
      • Notable for incredible durability and size for his time.
      • Won and lost the English title in grueling wars.
      • Fought Simon Byrne to the death (Byrne died days later).
      5. Tom Cribb (1781-1848)
      • Dominated the sport in the early 1800s.
      • Twice defeated American Tom Molineaux, a former slave and fierce contender.
      • Considered a British national hero and symbol of strength.
      6. Tom Molineaux (1784-1818)
      • African-American former slave who gained fame in England.
      • Nearly beat Cribb in 1810, a controversial fight many believed he won.
      • Fought with intelligence, speed, and ferocity.
      7. Daniel Mendoza (1764-1836) "The Father of Scientific Boxing"
      • Introduced defense, angles, and strategy to what had previously been brawling.
      • ***ish-English boxer who broke barriers and changed the sport tactically.
      8. Jack Broughton (c. 1704-1789) "The Father of the English Ring"
      • Created the first set of boxing rules in 1743 to reduce fatalities.
      • First true organized champion and boxing theorist.
      9. Ben Caunt (1815-1861)
      • Towering for his era; rival of Sayers and Burke.
      • Fought in some of the era most brutal contests.
      10. Joe Coburn (1835-1890)
      • Irish-American fighter, known for clean fighting and resilience.
      • Held the American heavyweight title and drew with John Heenan.
      Anyhow, what does anyone know about these guys, and how did they fight. how did they train? I understand the bouts were extremely long. Yes they knew how to pace themselves, and could grapple as defense - but that fact is the combat lasted an extremely long time - and would require immense toughness and know-how to survive and make a career out of it. imo I would not under estimate these guys even though I haven't seen them fight.
      Watch out for when Marchegiano sees your thread!
      Willow The Wisp Willow The Wisp likes this.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Marchegiano
        Mace - Dope

        John L - Dope

        Tom Sayers - Dope

        Deaf Burke - Dope

        Tom Cribb - Challenge below

        Tom Molyneaux - Dope

        Daniel Mendoza - Dope
        ?br /> Jack Broughton - Dope

        Joe Coburn - Dope




        Happy to see apples having a look. Good to have more eyes on the subject with more influences than "But I read some excerpts from Nat Fleischer's work doe".




        I noticed you drop the rival for all well known controversial figures and highlight the lesser champion, with the exception of Cribb.

        There is no John Jackson or Jem Ward listed, however, the man who won King George's belt by way of mob interference is not cast aside as they are.





        Bronson66 Apples doesn't come into threads and claim I MADE UP the same exact controversy I just alluded to while stating he doesn't know any better he just knows I made it up because he doesn't like me very much.


        That is me saying I have no problem with people accepting the generally accepted narratives. It's expected. I have a problem with know-nothing know-it-all kunts who think they can displace research with emotion while claiming I made up one of the most popular and well known BK era controversies. I alluded to it. apples will know what I am talking about. He can't have learned about Danny and missed Johnny can he? But I made it up doe and my influence is so great i even got the HOF to share my position some decade prior to my first internet capable machine.


        That's me saying you're too ****** and should quit trying because all that will happen is I make you cry. again.
        Attaboy March, you tell em! Nobody can tell em like you can !!!

        You correct and chastise them,even when they haven't said anything!lol

        Forewarned is forearmed and get your retaliation in first! You can't afford to give them any momentum! LOL

        ps I have never quoted Fleischer's work on any bareknuckler, I have posted extracts from Bells Life and other pieces from that period .

        I made a small joke here that appears to have triggered your emotions yet again,I'm sitting watching Wimbledon with dry eyes,just a bit warm from our current heat wave ,you are the one getting emotional, and over nothing.Settle down!
        Last edited by Bronson66; 06-30-2025, 02:15 PM.

        Comment


          #5
          There is a knuckler by the name of George La Blanche used a move to knock out the favorite Jack “nonpariel�Dempsey called the “pivot punch�where he would deliberately miss a left and wheel around on his heel and back hand like his arm was a baseball bat. Apparently he knocked him stiff and they banned the punch.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Bronson66 View Post
            Attaboy March, you tell em! Nobody can tell em like you can !!!

            You correct and chastise them,even when they haven't said anything!lol

            Forewarned is forearmed and get your retaliation in first! You can't afford to give them any momentum! LOL

            ps I have never quoted Fleischer's work on any bareknuckler, I have posted extracts from Bells Life and other pieces from that period .

            I made a small joke here that appears to have triggered your emotions yet again,I'm sitting watching Wimbledon with dry eyes,just a bit warm from our current heat wave ,you are the one getting emotional, and over nothing.Settle down!
            stop agitating, you contribute good info but you always wanna fight and bicker. I had to leave this forum for a few months because you want to fight and argue instead of discuss boxing. debating boxing is fine, disagreeing is fine. I'm back and all I have seen is you attack some good posters. once all the old guys are gone it's over. the young guys know nothing about boxing. so let's savor the time we have.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Bronson66 View Post

              Watch out for when Marchegiano sees your thread!
              did I miss something?

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by them_apples View Post

                did I miss something?
                '
                No he came galloping in as I knew he would I just made a little joke no agitating I dont have a problem with either him or you/The only poster I had a problem with is banned.

                Comment

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