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Who actually beats Johnson at his absolute prime?

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    #21
    Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

    You never heard that Jeannette or McVey fought Johnson competitively? Or are you asking about someone else?
    Johnson beat McVey easily in all three fights!

    1st Fight Johnson178lbs McVey 203lbs.

    "Johnson easily handled the Oxnard Wonder,McVey was beaten and pounded,and slammed around and punched and jabbed.Johnson would lambast his head for awhile ,then try his floating ribs.Johnson easily won the decision At the end of the bout the crowd,stood up and howled with joy,they appreciated Johnson's clever performance against such a big and powerful man."
    Los Angeles Times Feb 26th 1903.
    Contrary to expectations Johnson proved himself to be McVey's master in every department,close in as well as at long range.
    McVey was supposed to be Johnson's most dangerous rival,but Johnson was the winner at all points of the contest.
    He took the initiative at the outset,and crowded his heavier opponent from corner to corner,going around him like the proverbial cooper round a barrel,driving in here and there an effective straight left,a hard right chop to the kidneys,or occasionally sending his right across to the ear with considerable force.
    Whenever McVey would start to rough it in the mixups,Johnson made his stop with a shower of left and right hooks that made even the Oxnard's bullet like brainbox rattle like a dried walnut.
    McVey began the fight with an intention of landing his right,but whenever he cut loose,Johnson was not there or he would block the blow with an arm or glove" Johnson's blocking was splendid,as it always is and McVey did not land to exceed ten good blows during the fight,not over half of them at all were effective.
    On the other hand,in every round Johnson landed a dozen or two jabs, hooks, crosses,and chops.
    It is not often a fighter obtains a commanding lead over his adversary at the outset of a contest and retains it throughout without a single intermission in favour of the other but last night#s battle was one.Johnson was dominant."

    Los Angeles Times Feb27th 1903

    That is not the report of a competitive fight!


    2nd Fight McVey is said to be much improved and is favourite to win McVey's manager Billy Roche is giving Denver Ed Martin good money to spar with McVey and take a pounding. Wearing 8 oz gloves McVey drops Martin 4 times in 4 rds and knocks him out in the 5th rd. The betting shifts to even money.
    Oct 27th Hazards Pavilion LA."
    Rd 1 Johnson floors McVey with "a terrific well timed straight right to the point of the chin.McVey is up at 4 or 5 looking dazed,he clinches to avoid a ko Johnson overwhelmingly wins the round Rohe gives McVey smelling salts between rounds
    Rd 2 McVey rushes Johnson but, "meets his master at infighting",in a brilliant rally Johnson land three effective short arm blows to the head,and,"fights Mcvey al over the ring"
    Rd3 Johnson's round Johnson lands a straight left to the face that makes McVey clinch.Johnson repeatedly," feints McVey into a knot,and chopped him at his leisure."
    Rd 4 big round for Johnson.
    Rd 5 "McVey did a bit better this round after playing it cautiously for several rounds he bore in viciously .
    However every time he started something damaging Johnson would reach out about 4 feet and pick off the blow before it was ripe.Johnson's exhibition of blocking was something to marvel at."
    "Sam's face began to show the effects of Johnson's eft stabs and the blood began to flow"
    Rd6Johnson knocks McVey down with a right uppercut to the chin.Johnson lays back and waits for McVey to lead,then beats him to the punch Johnson lands a left uppercut and a right to the ear at the bell Big Johnson round.
    Rd7 Johnson forces the fighting. making McVey clinch.Johnson's round.
    Rd8Johnsons round but McVey looks the fresher of the two.

    Rd9"Johnson plants a left and right to the face" "Johnson rains in left jolts to the face,and a right to the ear"."
    Johnson"blocks all the blows sent his way." McVey is wild and Johnson puts two stiff left jabs to the face.Johnson pounds McVeys kidneys with right chops"Johnson's evens up the round, winding up rather strongly . McVeys face swells up considerably.Johnson's round
    Rd10 Johnson talks to McVey saying ,"don't crowd me Sam" Johnson lands lefts and rights to head and body a series of straight lefts cut up McVey face more.Johnson's round but closer.
    Rd11 Big Johnson round.
    Rd12 Johnson jabs his left into McVey's sore mouth 3 times in succession Sam lunged wildly and Johnson upperuts him3 times with his right to the face" McVey's lips are swollen to 3 times their natural size. Johnson staggers Sam with a left and a stiff right to the body makes Sam wince Johnson's round.

    Rd13 Johnson's round without much action.
    Rd14Johnson jabs and hooks to the face Johnson's Rd
    Rd15 "Johnson stabs Sam in the mouth with a left and,shoves him to the ropes as if he were lightweight,showing his strength,steps back and lands a right to the ear.Johnson goes inside and lands aright smash to the ribs and a right cross to the nose.He repeats the right twice and lands with sufficient force to have knocked out an ordinary man Johnson lands stiff lefts to the head,a right,a hook and across to the mouth." The Herald says,"in this round McVey's face began to take on the appearance of an overipe tomato McVeys face underwent a change one side of his countenance showed up several inches out of plumb."Johnson's Round big/
    Rd16 Using just his right Johnson controls the fight from long range.Johnson's Rd

    Rd17 McVey rushes blindly butJohnson stands his ground and counters him Easily Johnsons Rd.

    Rd18 McVey is desperate and chares in but is countered with jabs that have his nose and mouth bleeding freely,Johnson goes for the finish a stiff left and a right to the jaw floors McVey for the 3rd time.McVey gets up and takes a left hook,more left hooks and rights and then a wicked right hook to the ear."
    "McVey was very tired and looked all but out, he was pounded to a pulp and had taken all the worst of it again in trying to mix it ." The Herald.
    Rd19 Showing great courage McVey tries to mix it but is not able to land any of his swings.Johnson picks McVey up lifting him off his feet to show Sam he is still strong.Johnson's Rd.
    Rd20 Knowing he needs a ko McVey forces himself forward taking chances in an effort to land a big shot.
    Knowing the fight is his,Johnson is content to stay at long range jabbing and smothering Sams swings..
    At the gong the referee immediately holds up Johnson's hand
    "Johnson not only won the rematch,he dominated it scoring3 knockdowns and was in control the entire way" The Herald.

    "McVey was outfought at every point,and hammered until his face looked like a goat had chewed it.

    Johnson had to be given full credit for outclassing,outgeneraling and outpunching McVey for 20 rounds"The Times

    " McVeys face was beaten to the consistency of a pounded beef steak.He fought one hour and twenty minutes of the worst hell ever inflicted on a heavyweight in Los Angeles.

    Johnson pounded him at will.McVey was a punching bag,a foil for the shifty colored champion's art."The Times

    Jack Johnson was a finished boxer whom Sam Mcvey was utterly unable to solve.Nothing so discourages a boxer as being totally unable to hit his opponent Mcvey only landed two effective blows in the entire twenty rounds,one to the jaw ,the other on the ribs,all the punches Johnson either blocked before they were well started or avoided by a well timed . sidestep or duck." The Times.
    "Johnson was never in distress though once in the 9th round he looked a little tired but in the final minute he evened up the temporary advantage McVey had gained."The Times

    What Was Competitive About That Fight?

    3rd Fight April 22nd1904 Mechanics Pavilion San Francisco
    Rd 1 Johnson floors McVey with a left to the jaw.Johnson's Rd
    Rd2 Slow round which Johnson wins with a series of jabs.
    Rd 3 McVey's round.
    Rd 4Johnson round by a shade.
    Rd5 Big Johnson round as McVey slowed up Johnson lands jabs and several wicked uppercuts.
    Rd6 McVey is slower and does a lot of hugging Johnson's uppercuts are doing damage and a right to the head at the end of the round staggers McVey.Johnson's round.
    Rd7 A round of wrestling which Johnson nicks with a right and left rally.
    Rd8 Slow even round with both men tired.
    Rd9 Johnson forces the pace looking for a KO,he staggers McVey with a right to the head jabbing and swinging repeatedly landing so often he has McVey groggy at the end of the round.Big Johnson round.
    Rd10Johnson knocks McVey down with," a left cross that left the Oxnard Warrior in a sorry state."The Chronicle.Johnson's Round.
    Rd 11 Johnson's round but little damage done.
    Rd12Johnson had McVey groggy again ,but failed to follow up Johnson's Round.
    Rd13-Rd 18 The Call stated almost no fighting worth mentioning done/The Chronicle said "the fight had left McVey and Johnson was merely sparring.Regardless Johnson landed enough punches to knock the sense out of McVey who kept growing weaker"

    Rd 19 Johnson takes a chance staggering McVey with rights and lefts to the head McVey was nearly out from a hard left to the body. Big Johnson Round.
    Rd20" McVey's head was hardly cleared when Johnson went after him again throughout the round he landed repeatedly to the head.Near the end of the round with only about twenty seconds left,Johnson landed and left to the jaw which completely turned McVey around and he fell in a huge limp mass face downward on the floor.He lay there breathing heavily until counted out."The Call
    "After a break McVey turned to avoid Johnson and quick as a flash Johnson caught him with a right and left swing and McVey went down with a thump.He rolled over onto his stomach and the referee counted him out .
    McVeys two glassy eyes stared vacantly across the ring."The Chronicle

    "McVey's seconds assisted him to his corner." "McVey was so thoroughly out ,it wasn't until he was on the way to his dressing room that he realized he had been caught napping on the mat"The Chronicle
    The San Francisco Examiner thought that from the 11rd onwards Johnson was holding back.
    Weights Johnson190lbs McVey 208lbs
    McVey would not be stopped again for another 5 years and it took Joe Jeannette 49rds to do it, on a corner retirement.


    Now I've given you summaries of Johnson's three fights with McVey,summaries you were entirely ignorant of,but that didn't matter to you because you aren't interested in facts are you,just in slinging some mud

    Now tell me what was competitive about those three fights? Better still ,do some research and post the truth when you find it!!

    Comment


      #22
      Originally posted by Bronson66 View Post
      Johnson beat McVey easily in all three fights!

      1st Fight Johnson178lbs McVey 203lbs.

      "Johnson easily handled the Oxnard Wonder,McVey was beaten and pounded,and slammed around and punched and jabbed.Johnson would lambast his head for awhile ,then try his floating ribs.Johnson easily won the decision At the end of the bout the crowd,stood up and howled with joy,they appreciated Johnson's clever performance against such a big and powerful man."
      Los Angeles Times Feb 26th 1903.
      Contrary to expectations Johnson proved himself to be McVey's master in every department,close in as well as at long range.
      McVey was supposed to be Johnson's most dangerous rival,but Johnson was the winner at all points of the contest.
      He took the initiative at the outset,and crowded his heavier opponent from corner to corner,going around him like the proverbial cooper round a barrel,driving in here and there an effective straight left,a hard right chop to the kidneys,or occasionally sending his right across to the ear with considerable force.
      Whenever McVey would start to rough it in the mixups,Johnson made his stop with a shower of left and right hooks that made even the Oxnard's bullet like brainbox rattle like a dried walnut.
      McVey began the fight with an intention of landing his right,but whenever he cut loose,Johnson was not there or he would block the blow with an arm or glove" Johnson's blocking was splendid,as it always is and McVey did not land to exceed ten good blows during the fight,not over half of them at all were effective.
      On the other hand,in every round Johnson landed a dozen or two jabs, hooks, crosses,and chops.
      It is not often a fighter obtains a commanding lead over his adversary at the outset of a contest and retains it throughout without a single intermission in favour of the other but last night#s battle was one.Johnson was dominant."

      Los Angeles Times Feb27th 1903

      That is not the report of a competitive fight!


      2nd Fight McVey is said to be much improved and is favourite to win McVey's manager Billy Roche is giving Denver Ed Martin good money to spar with McVey and take a pounding. Wearing 8 oz gloves McVey drops Martin 4 times in 4 rds and knocks him out in the 5th rd. The betting shifts to even money.
      Oct 27th Hazards Pavilion LA."
      Rd 1 Johnson floors McVey with "a terrific well timed straight right to the point of the chin.McVey is up at 4 or 5 looking dazed,he clinches to avoid a ko Johnson overwhelmingly wins the round Rohe gives McVey smelling salts between rounds
      Rd 2 McVey rushes Johnson but, "meets his master at infighting",in a brilliant rally Johnson land three effective short arm blows to the head,and,"fights Mcvey al over the ring"
      Rd3 Johnson's round Johnson lands a straight left to the face that makes McVey clinch.Johnson repeatedly," feints McVey into a knot,and chopped him at his leisure."
      Rd 4 big round for Johnson.
      Rd 5 "McVey did a bit better this round after playing it cautiously for several rounds he bore in viciously .
      However every time he started something damaging Johnson would reach out about 4 feet and pick off the blow before it was ripe.Johnson's exhibition of blocking was something to marvel at."
      "Sam's face began to show the effects of Johnson's eft stabs and the blood began to flow"
      Rd6Johnson knocks McVey down with a right uppercut to the chin.Johnson lays back and waits for McVey to lead,then beats him to the punch Johnson lands a left uppercut and a right to the ear at the bell Big Johnson round.
      Rd7 Johnson forces the fighting. making McVey clinch.Johnson's round.
      Rd8Johnsons round but McVey looks the fresher of the two.

      Rd9"Johnson plants a left and right to the face" "Johnson rains in left jolts to the face,and a right to the ear"."
      Johnson"blocks all the blows sent his way." McVey is wild and Johnson puts two stiff left jabs to the face.Johnson pounds McVeys kidneys with right chops"Johnson's evens up the round, winding up rather strongly . McVeys face swells up considerably.Johnson's round
      Rd10 Johnson talks to McVey saying ,"don't crowd me Sam" Johnson lands lefts and rights to head and body a series of straight lefts cut up McVey face more.Johnson's round but closer.
      Rd11 Big Johnson round.
      Rd12 Johnson jabs his left into McVey's sore mouth 3 times in succession Sam lunged wildly and Johnson upperuts him3 times with his right to the face" McVey's lips are swollen to 3 times their natural size. Johnson staggers Sam with a left and a stiff right to the body makes Sam wince Johnson's round.

      Rd13 Johnson's round without much action.
      Rd14Johnson jabs and hooks to the face Johnson's Rd
      Rd15 "Johnson stabs Sam in the mouth with a left and,shoves him to the ropes as if he were lightweight,showing his strength,steps back and lands a right to the ear.Johnson goes inside and lands aright smash to the ribs and a right cross to the nose.He repeats the right twice and lands with sufficient force to have knocked out an ordinary man Johnson lands stiff lefts to the head,a right,a hook and across to the mouth." The Herald says,"in this round McVey's face began to take on the appearance of an overipe tomato McVeys face underwent a change one side of his countenance showed up several inches out of plumb."Johnson's Round big/
      Rd16 Using just his right Johnson controls the fight from long range.Johnson's Rd

      Rd17 McVey rushes blindly butJohnson stands his ground and counters him Easily Johnsons Rd.

      Rd18 McVey is desperate and chares in but is countered with jabs that have his nose and mouth bleeding freely,Johnson goes for the finish a stiff left and a right to the jaw floors McVey for the 3rd time.McVey gets up and takes a left hook,more left hooks and rights and then a wicked right hook to the ear."
      "McVey was very tired and looked all but out, he was pounded to a pulp and had taken all the worst of it again in trying to mix it ." The Herald.
      Rd19 Showing great courage McVey tries to mix it but is not able to land any of his swings.Johnson picks McVey up lifting him off his feet to show Sam he is still strong.Johnson's Rd.
      Rd20 Knowing he needs a ko McVey forces himself forward taking chances in an effort to land a big shot.
      Knowing the fight is his,Johnson is content to stay at long range jabbing and smothering Sams swings..
      At the gong the referee immediately holds up Johnson's hand
      "Johnson not only won the rematch,he dominated it scoring3 knockdowns and was in control the entire way" The Herald.

      "McVey was outfought at every point,and hammered until his face looked like a goat had chewed it.

      Johnson had to be given full credit for outclassing,outgeneraling and outpunching McVey for 20 rounds"The Times

      " McVeys face was beaten to the consistency of a pounded beef steak.He fought one hour and twenty minutes of the worst hell ever inflicted on a heavyweight in Los Angeles.

      Johnson pounded him at will.McVey was a punching bag,a foil for the shifty colored champion's art."The Times

      Jack Johnson was a finished boxer whom Sam Mcvey was utterly unable to solve.Nothing so discourages a boxer as being totally unable to hit his opponent Mcvey only landed two effective blows in the entire twenty rounds,one to the jaw ,the other on the ribs,all the punches Johnson either blocked before they were well started or avoided by a well timed . sidestep or duck." The Times.
      "Johnson was never in distress though once in the 9th round he looked a little tired but in the final minute he evened up the temporary advantage McVey had gained."The Times

      What Was Competitive About That Fight?

      3rd Fight April 22nd1904 Mechanics Pavilion San Francisco
      Rd 1 Johnson floors McVey with a left to the jaw.Johnson's Rd
      Rd2 Slow round which Johnson wins with a series of jabs.
      Rd 3 McVey's round.
      Rd 4Johnson round by a shade.
      Rd5 Big Johnson round as McVey slowed up Johnson lands jabs and several wicked uppercuts.
      Rd6 McVey is slower and does a lot of hugging Johnson's uppercuts are doing damage and a right to the head at the end of the round staggers McVey.Johnson's round.
      Rd7 A round of wrestling which Johnson nicks with a right and left rally.
      Rd8 Slow even round with both men tired.
      Rd9 Johnson forces the pace looking for a KO,he staggers McVey with a right to the head jabbing and swinging repeatedly landing so often he has McVey groggy at the end of the round.Big Johnson round.
      Rd10Johnson knocks McVey down with," a left cross that left the Oxnard Warrior in a sorry state."The Chronicle.Johnson's Round.
      Rd 11 Johnson's round but little damage done.
      Rd12Johnson had McVey groggy again ,but failed to follow up Johnson's Round.
      Rd13-Rd 18 The Call stated almost no fighting worth mentioning done/The Chronicle said "the fight had left McVey and Johnson was merely sparring.Regardless Johnson landed enough punches to knock the sense out of McVey who kept growing weaker"

      Rd 19 Johnson takes a chance staggering McVey with rights and lefts to the head McVey was nearly out from a hard left to the body. Big Johnson Round.
      Rd20" McVey's head was hardly cleared when Johnson went after him again throughout the round he landed repeatedly to the head.Near the end of the round with only about twenty seconds left,Johnson landed and left to the jaw which completely turned McVey around and he fell in a huge limp mass face downward on the floor.He lay there breathing heavily until counted out."The Call
      "After a break McVey turned to avoid Johnson and quick as a flash Johnson caught him with a right and left swing and McVey went down with a thump.He rolled over onto his stomach and the referee counted him out .
      McVeys two glassy eyes stared vacantly across the ring."The Chronicle

      "McVey's seconds assisted him to his corner." "McVey was so thoroughly out ,it wasn't until he was on the way to his dressing room that he realized he had been caught napping on the mat"The Chronicle
      The San Francisco Examiner thought that from the 11rd onwards Johnson was holding back.
      Weights Johnson190lbs McVey 208lbs
      McVey would not be stopped again for another 5 years and it took Joe Jeannette 49rds to do it, on a corner retirement.


      Now I've given you summaries of Johnson's three fights with McVey,summaries you were entirely ignorant of,but that didn't matter to you because you aren't interested in facts are you,just in slinging some mud

      Now tell me what was competitive about those three fights? Better still ,do some research and post the truth when you find it!!
      You posted all that nonsense when I said McVey was a novice. He had less than ten fights to his name each time he fought Johnson. Despite being a novice he goes 20 or more rounds with Johnson. How many novice fighters go that distance with a so-called greatest fighter of their generation? You’re overdue for a nap, you’re cranky and delusional.

      Comment


        #23
        Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

        You posted all that nonsense when I said McVey was a novice. He had less than ten fights to his name each time he fought Johnson. Despite being a novice he goes 20 or more rounds with Johnson. How many novice fighters go that distance with a so-called greatest fighter of their generation? You’re overdue for a nap, you’re cranky and delusional.
        You stated McVey was competitive with Johnson my post proves he wasn't . You never offer a damn thing just hate.

        McVey has several fights not credited and he was billed as having an18-1-0 record

        You are just a hating liar,you've no answer to any of our primary sources just insults,well from now on I'll give you them back in spades, a word I've been told you like.
        travestyny travestyny likes this.

        Comment


          #24
          Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

          You posted all that nonsense when I said McVey was a novice. He had less than ten fights to his name each time he fought Johnson. Despite being a novice he goes 20 or more rounds with Johnson. How many novice fighters go that distance with a so-called greatest fighter of their generation? You’re overdue for a nap, you’re cranky and delusional.
          I was always under the impression that Mcvey was a level below Johnson. He has one of the most impressive physiques I’ve ever seen though, I’ll say that much.

          also, I believe on youtube there is footage of Johnson sparring Jeanette as old men. It really show cases how Johnson fought, as the cameras by then are better - even if he is an old man.

          Comment


            #25
            Originally posted by them_apples View Post

            I was always under the impression that Mcvey was a level below Johnson. He has one of the most impressive physiques Iāve ever seen though, Iāll say that much.

            also, I believe on youtube there is footage of Johnson sparring Jeanette as old men. It really show cases how Johnson fought, as the cameras by then are better - even if he is an old man.
            He was a level belowJohnson.and he was not competitive in his three fights withJohnson as my ringside reports show.

            Johnson and McVey became close friends,Sam lived with Johnson and his wife for a time.When McVey died penniless Johnson paid for his funeral .The four black stars of that era are generally rated as follows.
            1.Johnson
            2.Langford
            3.Jeannette
            4.McVey
            I certainly would not argue with anyone who placed Langford no 1P4P.

            Comment


              #26
              Originally posted by Bronson66 View Post
              You stated McVey was competitive with Johnson my post proves he wasn't . You never offer a damn thing just hate.

              McVey has several fights not credited and he was billed as having an18-1-0 record

              You are just a hating liar,you've no answer to any of our primary sources just insults,well from now on I'll give you them back in spades, a word I've been told you like.
              Now you pull a different record out of your wrinkled ass. McVey was a novice and went over 20 rounds with a prime Johnson. Little Burns lasted only 14 yet you tout his greatness. Kaufman lasted 11, Ketchel 12. I’d say McVey going over 20 is competitive. You’re splitting hairs and being petty, take that nap.

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by them_apples View Post

                I was always under the impression that Mcvey was a level below Johnson. He has one of the most impressive physiques Iāve ever seen though, Iāll say that much.

                also, I believe on youtube there is footage of Johnson sparring Jeanette as old men. It really show cases how Johnson fought, as the cameras by then are better - even if he is an old man.
                McVey wasn’t great, he relied heavily on clinching and wrestling too. But a novice McVey going over 20 rounds with prime Johnson was more competitive than Flynn, Burns, Kaufman, Moran, Fitzsimmons….all wins Ivich likes to boast about.
                them_apples them_apples likes this.

                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

                  McVey wasn’t great, he relied heavily on clinching and wrestling too. But a novice McVey going over 20 rounds with prime Johnson was more competitive than Flynn, Burns, Kaufman, Moran, Fitzsimmons….all wins Ivich likes to boast about.
                  I haven't seen the fight so I can't realistically comment. Johnson however, carried guys, even on purpose - just to prolong a beating. he's one of the only fighters I've heard and seen do this. mocking and laughing as he did it. He was doing it to Burns and Ketchel, picking them up at times.

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Originally posted by them_apples View Post

                    I haven't seen the fight so I can't realistically comment. Johnson however, carried guys, even on purpose - just to prolong a beating. he's one of the only fighters I've heard and seen do this. mocking and laughing as he did it. He was doing it to Burns and Ketchel, picking them up at times.
                    He carried fighters who were outmatched. Burns and Ketchel were much smaller, Jeffries was washed up. Yet he struggled with Battling Jim who was considered a notch below and should have lost that fight. A fight he agreed to for a mere $1,000 so he could avoid Jeannette for $20k.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

                      He carried fighters who were outmatched. Burns and Ketchel were much smaller, Jeffries was washed up. Yet he struggled with Battling Jim who was considered a notch below and should have lost that fight. A fight he agreed to for a mere $1,000 so he could avoid Jeannette for $20k.
                      Ill add to it. Langford was green and a buck 50. Learned from Johnson and was not near his prime. By the sounds of it Johnson figured Langford to be a monster, sighting his right hand was like a laser. That being said, he did beat Langford up pretty good according to Langford himself - but still, wasn’t an optimal matchup.

                      Comment

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