Jack johnson - How good was his chin?

[Bronson66]

integrity of the man who consistently breaks vows? Nice to see you back I was SUPER worried you'd actually leave


shuddup *****, ain't no integrity to be seen here.


Someone said sluts don't go no where. Hmm.





Anyway, there's **** all nothing in any biography that isn't public information. Got to read dem Bios to get a historian to cite one of many papers and sources - if - you're too lazy or ****** to do research for yourself.


It's like saying you can't know a measurement until a technician verifies it while the measuring tape sits right there in front of you.









Classism often asked for monetary walls to enforce the statuses of the hierarchy. Interesting isn't it? Chap?

Of course all information is in the public domain,I never disputed that.

However all information regarding the respective sizes and weights of boxers of bygone eras is not to be found on BoxRec, so digging into books that cite primary sources and provide dated news reports would seem to be a logical step to take if a poster wants more detail on a given boxer.

I'm not going to the public library or spend hours trawling through newspapers on line, when their content is to be found duplicated in these aforesaid biographies.


I don't understand where you are at , your last post about me on here was aggressively disrespectful,almost hysterical in its venomous personal insults,literally dripping with vitriol.

Let me be clear, I am not complaining about it, but then you did a complete about face on ESB, assuring me ,without being asked to do so, that you would only post good things about me,lol

How have I offended you?
BTW I shan't repeat what you said about this forum when messaging me on ESB.

I'm just trying to ascertain where we are as regards debating?

The only explanation I can come up with for your "volte -face " is that you have a split personality, one for each Forum!
Perhaps there are key words that trigger your opposite responses?
Either way I'm happy to see you posting here,however baffled I may be by your content and your propensity," to turn turtle ," at times.
I'm no longer annoyed by your compulsive use of personal insults,I realise you have some issues,and I wish you well.

It's just that some consistency on your part would be nice!

Take care!



NB I voluntarily left this forum to end a feud, out for consideration for the many excellent posters here.
I came back when I saw my antagonist was banned,and there seemed no point in denying myself the opportunity to continue posting here any longer .
Now I see my antagonist is also back, posting under an Alt.

That is not my concern.
Integrity ? Where did I compromise my integrity?

Vows ? Which vow did I break?

[QueensburyRules]

This is a plausible reason for Jeffries exclusion,Langford unlike Johnson never rocked the boat or challenged the status quo.

Langford did turn down a fight with Al Kaufman,I have no explanation as to why .

- - Bigger fish to fry obviously...

[GhostofDempsey]

Its difficult to ascertain many weights,and heights of the fighters of that era when so many were "guestimates",especially the heavyweights.

A poster has to read biographies of these men to get more detail,here are a few of Johnsons opponents that were established
Klon***e 6ft 200lbsx3
McCormick 6ft 2 1/ 2 175lbs
Scanlan 5 ft 11 1/2 170's lbs
Everett 6 ft1/2 185 /225 lbs
Griffin 6 ft 1 180lbs x3
Kennedy 6ft 2 200lbs+
Russell 6ft 3 ?
Martin 6ft 3 1/2 210lbs
McVey 5 ft 10 203lbs
Ferguson 6 ft 3 1/2 ?x5
Butler 6ft 1/2 ?
McVey 5ft 10 206lbs
Ferguson 6ft 3 1/2 210lbs
McVey 5 ft 10 207lbs
Martin 6ft 3 1/2 210lbs
Jeffords 6ft 4 ?
Munroe 5ft 111/ 2 225lbs +
Ferguson 6 ft 3 1/2x4
Jeannette 5ft 10 1/2 185/190lbs x7
Felix 6ft 3 183lbs
Ross 5 ft 9 214lbs
Kaufman 6ft 1 191lbs
Jeffries 6ft 225lbs
Johnson5ft 10[estimates vary] 222 1/4lbs
Moran 6 ft 1 203lbs
Lodge 6ft 4 227lbs
Lester 6 ft 3 1/2 225lbs
42 fights with the above.

it should be pointed out that in his early contests Johnson was himself, a middleweight/supermiddleweight.
Apart from Jeffries , who on the above list were washed up / or appreciably smaller?

In your opinion,which bigger ,prime men ,who were not washed up did Johnson avoid?

That’s a long list of no-hopers. Again his fight style relied heavily on grappling and clinching.

He drew the color line as champion which has been argued here to no end. Should have lost to Battling Jim but was given a gift draw.

[Bronson66]

That’s a long list of no-hopers. Again his fight style relied heavily on grappling and clinching.

He drew the color line as champion which has been argued here to no end. Should have lost to Battling Jim but was given a gift draw.

Can we put aside your well documented hatred of Johnson and look objectively at that list?
Klon***e
Griffin
Everett
Martin
Jeannette
McVey
Butler
Kaufman,
Were not,"no hopers," labelling them so says more about you than them.
I've proved countless times that Johnson signed to defend against Jeanette in NY and McVey and Langford in Australia
I posted the terms of those fights the purses and the training and travelling expenses for them and the public statements from the NYAC,the promoters the McMahon Brothers,and Hugh D McIntosh, and their public statements as to why they pulled the plug on those fights.Plus a public statement from Jeannette absolving Johnson from any blame that the two attempts to put on a title fight between him and Johnson failed.
The proof that Johnson accepted those deals, signed the contracts and posted cash bonds as sureties is irrefutable and undeniable.


However as long as you live, you will not accept this documented proof ,because it directly contradicts with the version of Jack Johnson as a man that you want to believe existed.
There are three of you on this forum.
QueensburyRules

Dr Z, now match maker

And Yourself .
And nothing will ever change you opinions



Will you now produce a primary source that states Jim Johnson was robbed against Johnson?
Because I can produce one that says he wasn't!


To be honest,I can never decide whom you dislike the most Johnson ,or me! lol
Oh well its not a crime to dislike another poster, there is one here I positively detest.

Now allow me to put a case to you.
Supposing the KD of Johnson by 170lbs Ketchel was legit,[I dont think it was and,after watching it dozens of times in different speeds I'm convinced Johnson saw the punch coming and began to fall before it landed.His motive being to add value to the movie rights ,a percentage of which he was on board for.GunBoat Smith. Johnson's sparring partner for the fight concurs with this opinion],but no matter,lets suppose it was a kosher KD.

Ketchel was a terrific puncher well capable of flooring anyone with his right hand Sunday punch.

Other men his size floored heavyweights regularly.

Choynski,whomJeffries called the hardest puncher he ever met.

Fitzsimmons.

Langford
All dropped heavyweights on a regular basis,did anyone ever question the durability of the chin's on the men they dropped?
Yet you cite Ketchel's supposed legitimate KD of Johnson as proof his chin was weak?

Do you see the paradox here?

[Willie Pep 229]

Can we put aside your well documented hatred of Johnson and look objectively at that list?
Klon***e
Griffin
Everett
Martin
Jeannette
McVey
Butler
Kaufman,
Were not,"no hopers," labelling them so says more about you than them.
I've proved countless times that Johnson signed to defend against Jeanette in NY and McVey and Langford in Australia
I posted the terms of those fights the purses and the training and travelling expenses for them and the public statements from the NYAC,the promoters the McMahon Brothers,and Hugh D McIntosh, and their public statements as to why they pulled the plug on those fights.Plus a public statement from Jeannette absolving Johnson from any blame that the two attempts to put on a title fight between him and Johnson failed.
The proof that Johnson accepted those deals, signed the contracts and posted cash bonds as sureties is irrefutable and undeniable.


However as long as you live, you will not accept this documented proof ,because it directly contradicts with the version of Jack Johnson as a man that you want to believe existed.
There are three of you on this forum.
QueensburyRules

Dr Z, now match maker

And Yourself .
And nothing will ever change you opinions



Will you now produce a primary source that states Jim Johnson was robbed against Johnson?
Because I can produce one that says he wasn't!


To be honest,I can never decide whom you dislike the most Johnson ,or me! lol
Oh well its not a crime to dislike another poster, there is one here I positively detest.

Now allow me to put a case to you.
Supposing the KD of Johnson by 170lbs Ketchel was legit,[I dont think it was and,after watching it dozens of times in different speeds I'm convinced Johnson saw the punch coming and began to fall before it landed.His motive being to add value to the movie rights ,a percentage of which he was on board for.GunBoat Smith. Johnson's sparring partner for the fight concurs with this opinion],but no matter,lets suppose it was a kosher KD.

Ketchel was a terrific puncher well capable of flooring anyone with his right hand Sunday punch.

Other men his size floored heavyweights regularly.

Choynski,whomJeffries called the hardest puncher he ever met.

Fitzsimmons.

Langford
All dropped heavyweights on a regular basis,did anyone ever question the durability of the chin's on the men they dropped?
Yet you cite Ketchel's supposed legitimate KD of Johnson as proof his chin was weak?

Do you see the paradox here?

RE Bold: I have been around BS far a while now and I can assure you, "It's not you."

Ghost, whether popular or not, has held a consistent opinion regardless of who the other poster is.

[Willie Pep 229]

That’s a long list of no-hopers. Again his fight style relied heavily on grappling and clinching.

He drew the color line as champion which has been argued here to no end. Should have lost to Battling Jim but was given a gift draw.

On the side.

Nah! Battling Jim shouldn't have been given the decision against Johnson.

He didn't deserve the title shot.
They fought only 10 rounds.

A half ready Johnson appeared at the fight. Yet Battling Jim (by most accounts) never really had Johnson at bay.

You don't get the title for exceeding expectations. (Which he did) You got to beat a champion. None of the reports read that way.

[GhostofDempsey]

Can we put aside your well documented hatred of Johnson and look objectively at that list?
Klon***e
Griffin
Everett
Martin
Jeannette
McVey
Butler
Kaufman,
Were not,"no hopers," labelling them so says more about you than them.
I've proved countless times that Johnson signed to defend against Jeanette in NY and McVey and Langford in Australia
I posted the terms of those fights the purses and the training and travelling expenses for them and the public statements from the NYAC,the promoters the McMahon Brothers,and Hugh D McIntosh, and their public statements as to why they pulled the plug on those fights.Plus a public statement from Jeannette absolving Johnson from any blame that the two attempts to put on a title fight between him and Johnson failed.
The proof that Johnson accepted those deals, signed the contracts and posted cash bonds as sureties is irrefutable and undeniable.


However as long as you live, you will not accept this documented proof ,because it directly contradicts with the version of Jack Johnson as a man that you want to believe existed.
There are three of you on this forum.
QueensburyRules

Dr Z, now match maker

And Yourself .
And nothing will ever change you opinions



Will you now produce a primary source that states Jim Johnson was robbed against Johnson?
Because I can produce one that says he wasn't!


To be honest,I can never decide whom you dislike the most Johnson ,or me! lol
Oh well its not a crime to dislike another poster, there is one here I positively detest.

Now allow me to put a case to you.
Supposing the KD of Johnson by 170lbs Ketchel was legit,[I dont think it was and,after watching it dozens of times in different speeds I'm convinced Johnson saw the punch coming and began to fall before it landed.His motive being to add value to the movie rights ,a percentage of which he was on board for.GunBoat Smith. Johnson's sparring partner for the fight concurs with this opinion],but no matter,lets suppose it was a kosher KD.

Ketchel was a terrific puncher well capable of flooring anyone with his right hand Sunday punch.

Other men his size floored heavyweights regularly.

Choynski,whomJeffries called the hardest puncher he ever met.

Fitzsimmons.

Langford
All dropped heavyweights on a regular basis,did anyone ever question the durability of the chin's on the men they dropped?
Yet you cite Ketchel's supposed legitimate KD of Johnson as proof his chin was weak?

Do you see the paradox here?

You provided hollow “proof” Johnson ever intended to give title shots to them but he didn’t. All of those black fighters are in the history books insisting as much. He is also quoted as saying he would draw the color line. He usually
just priced himself out. It’s well documented.

Ketchel was overrated. Fitz was washed up. Langford was 156 pounds and 23.

[travestyny]

You provided hollow “proof” Johnson ever intended to give title shots to them but he didn’t. All of those black fighters are in the history books insisting as much. He is also quoted as saying he would draw the color line. He usually
just priced himself out. It’s well documented.

Ketchel was overrated. Fitz was washed up. Langford was 156 pounds and 23.

You’ve been giving this false information over and over and over, even when proven incorrect. Johnson didn’t say he would draw the color line. He made a joke about it and it was recognized as a joke.

He was performing vaudeville and asked if he would fight Langford, to which he said,”No, I’m going to draw the color line like all of the other ACTORS.” To which everyone laughed.

it’s the same with all of you guys. Mayweather made a sarcastic remark about being a coward and you guys run with it and claimed it was an admission. Rinse and repeat.

[Bronson66]

RE Bold: I have been around BS far a while now and I can assure you, "It's not you."

Ghost, whether popular or not, has held a consistent opinion regardless of who the other poster is.

I've nothing against Ghost,he told me he doesnt like me,from my very first post here and I'm fine with that,each to their own. He isn't, and never has been objective on Jack Johnson and neither are Queenie or DrZ ,now match maker.

[Bronson66]

You provided hollow “proof” Johnson ever intended to give title shots to them but he didn’t. All of those black fighters are in the history books insisting as much. He is also quoted as saying he would draw the color line. He usually
just priced himself out. It’s well documented.

Ketchel was overrated. Fitz was washed up. Langford was 156 pounds and 23.

I provided the purses ,the training expenses ,and the public statements all concerned parties made to the press.
They were all taken from Pollacks biographies of Johnson along with the newspapers names and the dates.
You know I posted them,and you know the sources they came from.

There is nothing more to be said on that front.

Johnson many,many times stated he would fight anyone if his $30,000 purse was met, when the McMahon Bros on Jeannette's behalf ,and McIntosh on McVey's and Langford's behalf, met Johnsons price he signed the contracts and posted his cash bond.
This is all a matter of public record and all the wriggling and postulating on your behalf will not alter that fact.

Nor will it erase their statements to the public explaining why they were forced to abandon their promotion of those fights,nor erase Jeannette's statement that Johnson was not to blame for their title fight being cancelled twice.

I never mentioned those three in that context .I named them as 170 pounders that could knock down heavyweights. Langford did not weigh in for his fight with Johnson,you are quoting a "guestimate".