New To Me!

[Bronson66]

[travestyny]

Wasn't Johnson famously attacked on the streets of NY for bragging that he was right when Louis lost to Schmellng? I think the police had to save him.

[Bronson66]

Wasn't Johnson famously attacked on the streets of NY for bragging that he was right when Louis lost to Schmellng? I think the police had to save him.

That's the story.

[travestyny]

It might be easy to dismiss him as a hater, but with his knowledge, I'd say his criticisms should have been considered.

[Willie Pep 229]

Sounds like he posts on this forum.

[Willow The Wisp]

17448136601974785843569542368990.jpg
Jack Johnson rips into Joe Louis, “His stance is all wrong!”
John Arthur (Jack) Johnson, former holder of the world’s championship in the heavyweight division, is so sure Joe Louis isn’t the great fighter critics acclaim him to be that he (Jack) has taken his argument from the street corners and barber shops and now has armed himself with pen and ink.
Writing in a current issue of “The Ring,” national prizefighting magazine, “Lil” Arthur rips into Joe, into his training and his record and in uncertain terms tells why he thinks Joe is not the equal of other ring immortals of whom so much has been written. Says Jack (I’m a writer) Johnson in this article which we reprint in full:
“”First, and foremost, I disagree with all the critics who place Joe Louis in the same class with Langford, (Barbados) Walcott, Jeffries, Fitz, Corbett and myself. I do not propose to make the statement that Louis is not a great fighter, for that would not be in doing justice to Joe, but I do go on record with the statement that he is far from being the equal of some of the great men of my time. He has to learn before he can be classed in our section of pugilism, and I say this with all due respect to my race, the race to which Joe belongs.
“I have discovered several gross defects in his fighting, and those flaws alone prevent Joe from being classed with the men I have mentioned. The most glaring fault I find with Louis is his improper stance. Where in the world did he ever get that stance?
The Perfect Stance “If Joe stands correctly when he boxes, then I know nothing about the sport and I have wasted much valuable time as a teacher of boxing. If Joe is right in his stance, then I was wrong all my career and those who thought I was a great fighter were sadly mistaken. Every time I enter the Ring bookshop, I can’t help but admire the stance of Corbett, the most perfect stance in boxing – the stance which several other great men of his period used.
“Why all this worry about the stance of a fighter, Louis in particular? Let me tell you first – a fighter must be perfectly balanced in order to hit correctly. A man can’t possibly be in a position to hit and be perfectly balanced on his feet if he stands the way Joe Louis does.
“I had Hype Igoe in the Ring office a few days ago and I demonstrated to him the meaning of my statement. I likewise had Benny Leonard, Charley Massare, Tony Canzoneri, and Freddie Miller in that office and showed them why the Corbett and Johnson stances were the only proper ones to assume in boxing.
Must Plant That Foot “A fighter must punch along the line of his left foot. He must plant that foot out in front of him, aimed at the man who is facing him. If we of the old school missed a left lead – and I assure you that happened so seldom it was a rarity, then, we were always in a proper position to follow up our miss with a right hander and still retain our balance. Thus the full force of our punch hit the mark and we didn’t fall to one side or fall short in our blow.
“I have watched Joe Louis in action on several occasions and I have repeatedly seen him thrown off balance after missing a punch. I saw Max Baer land one on his chin on just such an occasion and I saw Nattie Brown do the same. If Joe Louis were taught to stand as did Corbett and other ring men of marked ability as boxers, such would never happen to hm.
I Had Perfect Balance “In my prime, I could stand in one spot and avoid punches hurled at me and at the same time hit the mark as often as I aimed for it only because I had perfect balance. If I missed with a left my right was sure to crash against my opponent’s jaw or body without me losing stride. If Joe Louis had been taught how to stand properly, then with his deadly punch, there would be no reason in the world for him not to be a one-punch knocker-out.
“Look over his record and you will find that in most of his contests either the referee has been compelled to stop the fight or else Joe’s opponents have been so scared stiff that they called a halt before the knockout could be delivered. Thus, Joe knocks them all down, but why don’t they stay down? The Bomber is a terrific puncher and therefore it should not be necessary for him to carry his opponent’s for more than a round or two. Mind you, I do not to intend to belittle Joe Louis. All I am trying to do is point to the importance of stance in boxing.
Braddock Plenty Tough “Candidly I believe that those who are belittling Jimmy Braddock will find Jimmy a far tougher problem for Joe Louis to solve than any fighter the Detroiter has met to date. And why? Because Jimmy Braddock is a clever boxer and has got the perfect stance, though not the marked degree of Benny Leonard and those of my school. You will find that Louis is not a difficult target once you study his flaws and perfect a system of attack or defense to combat him.
“The writers, including my pal Nat Fleischer (editor of Ring – Ed.) keep raving about Joe Louis, calling him the perfect fighter. I have asked the editor of this publication to point out to me wherein he finds the Brown Bomber the perfect fighter, and against every argument he has given me, I have found an answer, which in my opinion, is sufficient to prove that he and many other scribes are too het up over Louis to see him in the light that I see him.
Seen Every Fighter “I have seen every fighter of note in the last 45 years and I daresay that I can pick out at least two dozen in my time that not only would have whipped Joe Louis but would have knocked him out.
“What can Joe Louis do that we couldn’’t do? You can’t point out one thing other than the power behind his punch and in that respect it is my candid opinion that Jeffries, Fitzsimmons, Tom Sharkey, Joe Choynski, Stanley Ketchel, Sam Langford, Joe Walcott, Jack Dempsey, Hank Griffin and myself among others, had as hard a punch as Louis has.
“And when you come to real greatness, and by that I mean all around ability, wherein does Joe Louis fit with such great little men as Joe Gans, George Dixon, little as they were.
Used Too Commonly “You must remember that greatness is a term that too often is used too commonly. Taken for its true value, greatness signifies everything that one might consider in depicting a fighter as possessing science, hitting power, agility, skill and what not that goes to make up greatness.
“Has Joe Louis all of these qualifications? I daresay no, for his greatness rests wholly in his punch.
“Joe Walcott, in my opinion, was the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He had everything that I have named above. Consider his record, and show me a man in any division who can compare to little Joe.
He whipped the best men in the lightweight division, the welters, middleweights, light-heavyweights, and even the heavyweights of his day, yet compare his weight to that of Joe Louis of today and mark the vast difference.
Whipped Kid Lavigne “Walcott whipped Kid Lavigne at 133 pounds, knocked out Rube Ferns for the welterweight title, scored over the great Mick Dunne, then the best middleweight fighter in Australia, and probably the greatest ever produced in that land, and knocked out Joe Choynski, after Joe had gone the distance with Jim Jeffries.
“Here you, now have my analysis of Joe Louis greatness. I suppose many people of my race will condemn me of being either jealous or ungrateful, but I want to assure them, and my army of white friends that his article is not a knock at Louis nor is it written for any other purpose than to prove the value of proper stance in boxing.””

[billeau2]

Wasn't Johnson famously attacked on the streets of NY for bragging that he was right when Louis lost to Schmellng? I think the police had to save him.

I don't know BUT I have heard Johnson was jealous of Louis and that Louis did not want much to do with him... perhaps this being the reason for the bad feelings?

[travestyny]

So what do you guys think of Joe Louis' stance? Was it flawed?

[billeau2]

17448136601974785843569542368990.jpg
Jack Johnson rips into Joe Louis, “His stance is all wrong!”
John Arthur (Jack) Johnson, former holder of the world’s championship in the heavyweight division, is so sure Joe Louis isn’t the great fighter critics acclaim him to be that he (Jack) has taken his argument from the street corners and barber shops and now has armed himself with pen and ink.
Writing in a current issue of “The Ring,” national prizefighting magazine, “Lil” Arthur rips into Joe, into his training and his record and in uncertain terms tells why he thinks Joe is not the equal of other ring immortals of whom so much has been written. Says Jack (I’m a writer) Johnson in this article which we reprint in full:
“”First, and foremost, I disagree with all the critics who place Joe Louis in the same class with Langford, (Barbados) Walcott, Jeffries, Fitz, Corbett and myself. I do not propose to make the statement that Louis is not a great fighter, for that would not be in doing justice to Joe, but I do go on record with the statement that he is far from being the equal of some of the great men of my time. He has to learn before he can be classed in our section of pugilism, and I say this with all due respect to my race, the race to which Joe belongs.
“I have discovered several gross defects in his fighting, and those flaws alone prevent Joe from being classed with the men I have mentioned. The most glaring fault I find with Louis is his improper stance. Where in the world did he ever get that stance?
The Perfect Stance “If Joe stands correctly when he boxes, then I know nothing about the sport and I have wasted much valuable time as a teacher of boxing. If Joe is right in his stance, then I was wrong all my career and those who thought I was a great fighter were sadly mistaken. Every time I enter the Ring bookshop, I can’t help but admire the stance of Corbett, the most perfect stance in boxing – the stance which several other great men of his period used.
“Why all this worry about the stance of a fighter, Louis in particular? Let me tell you first – a fighter must be perfectly balanced in order to hit correctly. A man can’t possibly be in a position to hit and be perfectly balanced on his feet if he stands the way Joe Louis does.
“I had Hype Igoe in the Ring office a few days ago and I demonstrated to him the meaning of my statement. I likewise had Benny Leonard, Charley Massare, Tony Canzoneri, and Freddie Miller in that office and showed them why the Corbett and Johnson stances were the only proper ones to assume in boxing.
Must Plant That Foot “A fighter must punch along the line of his left foot. He must plant that foot out in front of him, aimed at the man who is facing him. If we of the old school missed a left lead – and I assure you that happened so seldom it was a rarity, then, we were always in a proper position to follow up our miss with a right hander and still retain our balance. Thus the full force of our punch hit the mark and we didn’t fall to one side or fall short in our blow.
“I have watched Joe Louis in action on several occasions and I have repeatedly seen him thrown off balance after missing a punch. I saw Max Baer land one on his chin on just such an occasion and I saw Nattie Brown do the same. If Joe Louis were taught to stand as did Corbett and other ring men of marked ability as boxers, such would never happen to hm.
I Had Perfect Balance “In my prime, I could stand in one spot and avoid punches hurled at me and at the same time hit the mark as often as I aimed for it only because I had perfect balance. If I missed with a left my right was sure to crash against my opponent’s jaw or body without me losing stride. If Joe Louis had been taught how to stand properly, then with his deadly punch, there would be no reason in the world for him not to be a one-punch knocker-out.
“Look over his record and you will find that in most of his contests either the referee has been compelled to stop the fight or else Joe’s opponents have been so scared stiff that they called a halt before the knockout could be delivered. Thus, Joe knocks them all down, but why don’t they stay down? The Bomber is a terrific puncher and therefore it should not be necessary for him to carry his opponent’s for more than a round or two. Mind you, I do not to intend to belittle Joe Louis. All I am trying to do is point to the importance of stance in boxing.
Braddock Plenty Tough “Candidly I believe that those who are belittling Jimmy Braddock will find Jimmy a far tougher problem for Joe Louis to solve than any fighter the Detroiter has met to date. And why? Because Jimmy Braddock is a clever boxer and has got the perfect stance, though not the marked degree of Benny Leonard and those of my school. You will find that Louis is not a difficult target once you study his flaws and perfect a system of attack or defense to combat him.
“The writers, including my pal Nat Fleischer (editor of Ring – Ed.) keep raving about Joe Louis, calling him the perfect fighter. I have asked the editor of this publication to point out to me wherein he finds the Brown Bomber the perfect fighter, and against every argument he has given me, I have found an answer, which in my opinion, is sufficient to prove that he and many other scribes are too het up over Louis to see him in the light that I see him.
Seen Every Fighter “I have seen every fighter of note in the last 45 years and I daresay that I can pick out at least two dozen in my time that not only would have whipped Joe Louis but would have knocked him out.
“What can Joe Louis do that we couldn’’t do? You can’t point out one thing other than the power behind his punch and in that respect it is my candid opinion that Jeffries, Fitzsimmons, Tom Sharkey, Joe Choynski, Stanley Ketchel, Sam Langford, Joe Walcott, Jack Dempsey, Hank Griffin and myself among others, had as hard a punch as Louis has.
“And when you come to real greatness, and by that I mean all around ability, wherein does Joe Louis fit with such great little men as Joe Gans, George Dixon, little as they were.
Used Too Commonly “You must remember that greatness is a term that too often is used too commonly. Taken for its true value, greatness signifies everything that one might consider in depicting a fighter as possessing science, hitting power, agility, skill and what not that goes to make up greatness.
“Has Joe Louis all of these qualifications? I daresay no, for his greatness rests wholly in his punch.
“Joe Walcott, in my opinion, was the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He had everything that I have named above. Consider his record, and show me a man in any division who can compare to little Joe.
He whipped the best men in the lightweight division, the welters, middleweights, light-heavyweights, and even the heavyweights of his day, yet compare his weight to that of Joe Louis of today and mark the vast difference.
Whipped Kid Lavigne “Walcott whipped Kid Lavigne at 133 pounds, knocked out Rube Ferns for the welterweight title, scored over the great Mick Dunne, then the best middleweight fighter in Australia, and probably the greatest ever produced in that land, and knocked out Joe Choynski, after Joe had gone the distance with Jim Jeffries.
“Here you, now have my analysis of Joe Louis greatness. I suppose many people of my race will condemn me of being either jealous or ungrateful, but I want to assure them, and my army of white friends that his article is not a knock at Louis nor is it written for any other purpose than to prove the value of proper stance in boxing.””

This article is an excellent source for pointing out differences in the style of fighting Post and pre Dempsey. Notice how Johnson calls the "jab" a lead, for starters. n Johnson's style a fighter had to work a lead from sword distance (3 feet or so) while in Louis' time the jab was thrown more from an immediate fighting distance where each fighter could reach the other without moving in.

Fencers and James Figg style boxing emphasize balance as about a 50 50 to 30 70 weight distribution between the legs, while for the punchers coming out of modern theory, weight is more towards either leg most times. You need weight to enhance the crack of a good shot. Louis used a false center popular among fighters and placed his head right into his point of triangle, balance between his feet. over his back shoulder. This would look unbalanced to a fighter from the previous generations. Guys of Johnson's time held the head straight over the back leg ntil shifting forward when delivering a punch.

There is not a "correct" way here as both methods have their qualities. Also it is interesting to watch the Louis Schmelling fight: Louis got really tagged the first Knock down. It seemed to drain him and set him up for the later KO. He was succesful jabbing Schmelling, but he got tired and that is when the hands held low caused him to get Ko'ed.

[Biledriver]

Bear in mind, Johnson was also butthurt because Jack Blackburn (who despised Johnson) banned Johnson from having any contact with Louis.