The St Valentine's Day Massacre version of Robinson v the Sibson version of Hagler?

[Anomalocaris]

This was by far the best of Ray at middle and one of the most awesome performances in sporting history period.

I think he outpoints Marvin by a decent margin or even stops him on cuts in the championship rounds.

[Legends456]

Yeah I think peak SRR wins a brutal UD over Hagler, great as he was. One of those where you almost feel bad for the guy that he just won’t go down. “Too tough for his own good”.

[Willie Pep 229]

Yeah I think peak SRR wins a brutal UD over Hagler, great as he was. One of those where you almost feel bad for the guy that he just won’t go down. “Too tough for his own good”.

SRR lost to Lamotta, Basilio, Fullmer.

I would say SRR is likely win a trilogy, but on any given night Hagler could beat him just as the above did.

[JAB5239]

I think what some may forget is LaMotta was having trouble making weight. Also, as great as Jake was, I'm hard pressed to think of anything he did better than Hagler. Marvin moves better, is fatster, tighter defense, punches harder, and can switch fro orthodox to southpaw without missing a beat. This is no walkover for Robinson. In fact I think this is a 50/50 fight that could go either way.

[JeBron Lamez]

SRR lost to Lamotta, Basilio, Fullmer.

If we're doing all that then let's all remember that Hagler lost to the imitation Sugar Ray

[Anomalocaris]

SRR lost to Lamotta, Basilio, Fullmer.

I would say SRR is likely win a trilogy, but on any given night Hagler could beat him just as the above did.

Once to Lamotta out of six, Basilio and Fullmer were way past his prime (which was at welter anyway).

I actually think Raging Bull has led to Lamotta being overrated.

He was not a devastating puncher, was lucky Cerdan got injured in their fight and then tragically died in a plane crash before the rematch.

Oh and the film made him seem human when in fact he was a psychopath, a monster.

Not that Robinson was much better as a person, battering his wife so brutally that she had miscarriages - and that was revealed by his son.

[Anomalocaris]

If we're doing all that then let's all remember that Hagler lost to the imitation Sugar Ray

Who had had one fight in five years despite Hagler's 30 of years of endless whining about the fair decision.

[Mr Mitts]

Like jab said, this is a 50-50 fight. Robinson was not invincible, as overrating does occur at the highest levels too. The best middleweight ever can be overrated too. How is that done, you say? Answer: by exaggerating their chances against other ATGs. On paper this fight is as close as they come.

Ray cannot KO Hagler but might stop him on cuts. But Ray can be cut too, and Hagler's slashing punches are just the kind to do it. Turpin II was almost stopped because of Robinson's cut eye. Truth be told, I am not certain Turpin got hit enough in that last flurry to warrant a stoppage. Most of Robinson's punches were missing. I say you are defending yourself if you are still making one of the most accurate punchers ever miss most of his punches even while you are hurt. I do not remember how much time was left in that round, which would be crucial evidence in establishing whether Ray got a little extra help from the referee.

Robinson did not really come to fight chess matches, though fully capable. He was much more interested in brutalizing his opponent than having a long chess match with him. It will turn into a brawl. Actual running (as in fleeing) seems incompatible with Robby's mindset. He was there to fight, and that is what will make this a brawl.

Either man could prove he is just too tough for his own good. This is definitely the preferred version of Hagler, since he even displayed good ring generalship against Sibson.

I would be lying if I said I could pick a winner here.

[Anomalocaris]

A very nice post.

But I actually think that Greb is the ATG middle judging by the number of awesome fighters that he beat including the far bigger Tunney.

The rest take your pick, Monzon, Hagler, Hopkins etc.

Robinson was the ATG welter followed by Ray and Tommy (at least HTH).

But on that night against LaMotta at middle he was probably fighting at the last of his true prime - and was absolutely superb.

[QueensburyRules]

This was by far the best of Ray at middle and one of the most awesome performances in sporting history period.

I think he outpoints Marvin by a decent margin or even stops him on cuts in the championship rounds.

- - Sugar and Monzon both beat Marv as much as I love him.