Another one about Colorline

[Marchegiano]

I just wanted to share an interaction and see where you guys fall on this:


Should Harry Wills rank over Sonny Liston ?

Not unless you're going to legitimize the "colored titles" as equal to the "world" titles during the colorline.

Status should mean something. Resume is nothing but a reflection of bias. Acknowledging status while feeling another has a better record or resume simply means you have the ability to recognize you may be wrong.

Liston is a world champion in a post colorline era when most of the world's citizens were capable of becoming fighters.

Wills is the ducked black contender that haunted a time period blown out of proportion by the advent of Ring.

It should matter. Liston got to be who Wills was denied being. It should matter to Wills, Dempsey, Tunney, and Liston. Only one name there is a real world champion proven best in his time over all living men.

Liston made a singular defence of the world title against the man he beat to win it, then lost it immediately to the man that actually proved himself the best of all living men in his time. Using the title as an argument for Liston's favour is really weak here, because he was the worst champion out of all the ATG's, bar none. He was the supposed best of all living men for barely over a year. If Liston had proven himself better than all living men by just being champ, then so did Leon Spinks. There's an obvious and huge difference between the two, but that doesn't chance the fact that just the status of being the lineal champ in a non colour line era doesn't mean much in itself. It can be a matter of circumstance just as much as it can be a matter of ability and greatness.

Wills proved himself the superior of all black men, missing absolutely none of them, and was the #1 contender for who knows how many years by also beating most of the top white contenders like Fulton, Weinert and Firpo. Liston was proven not to be the best of his time, Wills was never given the chance to prove he was more than the second best. The difference is that Wills was beating everybody aside from the champ for 8 years, remaining undefeated aside from a single DQ loss, proving himself no worse than the second best of his era.

As George said in his post, I'm not willing to rank a guy with 1 mere defence over a near decade long #1 contender if the latter's resume is better.

Semantics bro, word choice. We don't really disagree, I don't think.

Let me dial it in so you get what I meant instead of arguing with how the words can be taken. Maybe i'm wrong but I think you actually agree with me.




Your first paragraph deals in eras. I would encourage you to reread when I chose "era" and "time". Because those were not without consideration. The only instance when I spoke to any era in relation to Sonny Liston was to say Liston is Post Colorline Era.

I'm not sure Sonny was champion long enough to have a "Liston Era" but what can't be argued is he got his time. He got his title fight, won that, and got to live the life of a man who is HW champ of the world.




Your second paragraph I think is perfectly acceptable and would direct you to the first line I wrote.




No "world" champion before the end of the colorline should be given the honor of being considered a legitimate world champion any more or less than that honor is given to the "colored" champions. This, of course is opinion. It can't be wrong, it can only be outside of consensus.

What I am saying is I am cool with seeing Dempsey as the "world" champion equal to Wills "colored" champion in anyway you want to take that. If Dempsey is legit, so is Wills, if Wills is not legit, then neither is Dempsey.

Since the "colored" titles are considered lesser all I am actually refusing is seeing the colorline era champions as equal to the post colorline champions. On both sides. Get me?


I don't really mind if you disagree, just seems to me you don't.

Yeah, I like it. I think it would be appropriate for the ''World'' and ''coloured'' titles to be seen as the 1910's equivalent of the NBA and NYSAC, or the WBC and WBA version of the era. Except a unification just never transpired. Cheers.

Why not bros?

[Bronson66]

I just wanted to share an interaction and see where you guys fall on this:


Should Harry Wills rank over Sonny Liston ?

















Why not bros?

Its a valid point of view.I looked at it on ESB too, but didn't comment.Personally Liston easily makes my top ten and Wills is outside it,but I can appreciate the thinking from the opposite camp.
One could plausibly say the first real world heavyweight champion was Tommy Burns,as he was the first to give a black man a chance at the title.
The problem then arises on how we then individually categorize the men who have held the title. Do we dismiss
Sullivan
Corbett
Jeffries
Hart
All of whom had no intention of defending against a black man?
All of whom had credible black challengers.
Or do we differentiate between those above and those that really did not have outstanding black contenders,that it was incumbent on them to fight?
It's a big can of worms to open,imo and,for the sake of continuity if not justice, I'm prepared to go with the status quo.

It is however not a black and white issue,no pun intended,but rather a murky grey one.

Good idea to bring this here though M.

[QueensburyRules]

I just wanted to share an interaction and see where you guys fall on this:


Should Harry Wills rank over Sonny Liston ?

















Why not bros?

- - Wills had a longer career as contender with bukos more Black Hvy Defenses than Liston had Regular Defenses. Since I think prime Wills takes 22 yr old Clay as one point of comparison, yeah, by that limited comparison, Wills is better.

Nobody in the history of boxing has ever come up with a comprehensive way to rank fighters because Boxing has mostly been run by LowBrows. They drove the greatest spectacle sport in the world now near ruins compared to the MLB/NFL/NHL...

[billeau2]

Separating the hyperbole from the facts is a monumental task here... When we try to find an equivalency regarding exclusive Black leagues to the White leagues in baseball (for example) there is so much to consider... Satchel paige was able to play major league baseball well after his best years, and Jackie Robinson was certainly a phenominal talent in the same leagues. I think at least it gives us a benchmark here.

I know the above is baseball but I believe it tells us something about boxing. How great would Paige have been in his heyday? In boxing the great Black Fighters ealt with a different set of challenges. Aside from the racial climate, they were generally talented and had to fight each other many times... Making them very good in certain respects and lacking experience at times concerning a wider range of combatants. Hence, to say Wills was "better" or "worse" on any metric considering competition is sketchy. Aside from that? Some of us think Liston was one of the very best ever. Wills could IMO never be mistaken for one of the best ever.

I say this as someone who has a lot of affection for the circumstances of both men. Wills was a smart cookie who set up rental properties and business in Harlem, and lived a good life with his health basically in tact. Liston was a mecurial figure... in some ways a frankenstein... But in addition to showing off brutality, Liston was special in his gentleness to his wife and children. He was also loyal to those who helped him. I grew up with guys like Liston and will always have a soft spot for Sonny.

[JAB5239]

I personally rank Wills very highly all time based on his resume and contender status.

[Anomalocaris]

Well as Steward said Sonny wiped out the entire division BEFORE he was given a shot at the title - which has never been done before or since.

The late 50's prime Sonny terrified his fellow fighters, sportswriters and even politicians (including the POTUS).

A HTH nightmare.

[Willie Pep 229]

Well as Steward said Sonny wiped out the entire division BEFORE he was given a shot at the title - which has never been done before or since.

The late 50's prime Sonny terrified his fellow fighters, sportswriters and even politicians (including the POTUS).

A HTH nightmare.

I doubt he frightened JFK. Sonny was just going to be a problem for the Civil Rights movement, which little brother RFK was slowly using to build his future career on.

I don't think JFK was easy to scare. What he actually was, was a cut throat politician who would manipulate any person or situation to his (or his family's) advantage.

Sonny Liston and Jack Johnson were NOT good for white-black relations. A reality of the time. A truth no one here wants to address.

Of course they were both very good for empowering the black community. That's a good thing but in a different way. A different way that was not conducive to the Brothers Kennedy's plan.

[JAB5239]

I doubt he frightened JFK. Sonny was just going to be a problem for the Civil Rights movement, which little brother RFK was slowly using to build his future career on.

I don't think JFK was easy to scare. What he actually was, was a cut throat politician who would manipulate any person or situation to his (or his family's) advantage.

Sonny Liston and Jack Johnson were NOT good for white-black relations. A reality of the time. A truth no one here wants to address.

Of course they were both very good for empowering the black community. That's a good thing but in a different way. A different way that was not conducive to the Brothers Kennedy's plan.

Here's a question concerning Johnson and his negative impact on white-black relations. Was he a pioneer that the issue just took time to catch up with, or a malevolent person who cared nothing for these issues?

[Bronson66]

Here's a question concerning Johnson and his negative impact on white-black relations. Was he a pioneer that the issue just took time to catch up with, or a malevolent person who cared nothing for these issues?

I don't think Johnson was either,he was a man who did what he wanted and said **** conventions," I have the right to choose my own mate."

[JAB5239]

I don't think Johnson was either,he was a man who did what he wanted and said **** conventions," I have the right to choose my own mate."

I believe this would make him a pioneer that the issue of white-black relations took time to catch up with. This of course is just my opinion. I'm just interested to see how others may interpret and answer this question.