Weakest HW Champ Of Them All

[travestyny]

Nice to see you posting again!

Nice to know you're still around as well, good sir!

[Willow The Wisp]

I agree, personally I struggle to see the HW champions of the whites from BE and the USA as legitimate world HW champions.


Lineage, sure, but no one calls Figg a world champion. Mendoza, Cribb, etc. all important figures leading up to the world title but not world figures and that's cool with everyone. Dempsey, Jeffries, Fitzs, I get why they have fans. They were fantastic for their time in their little tiny baby pool of talent but to pretend like the scope of boxing was global is a lie. I don't see why we don't be honest about the early "world" champions and put them into their own category not unlike how we have BK and LPRR champions. They were intercontinental white champions.

IMO, the true world title was not established until the colored title was made defunct by Joe Louis.

Let's give a nod to actual, scholarly history for just a moment. My New Years Eve post for all my friends here.
Various permutations of stand-up, (mostly) fists only fighting contests conducted for non lethal military training and entertainment purposes, distinctly apart from ground grappling, existed within many cultures following the fall of Rome and the effective end of the Greco-Roman tradition (Greek pygme, Roman pugilatus), which were outlawed in AD 393 by Roman Emperor Theodosius the Great, as being both unnecessarily violent and a spectacle of Pagan celebration.

But recorded modern boxing began in earnest with an article published in the London Protestant Mercury on January 6, 1681. The story reported an organized bare-knuckle fight between the unnamed London Butcher, and the Footman of Christopher Monck, the 2nd Duke of Albemarle. The butcher won the prize and was proclaimed the "best boxer in England".

The English title began officially in 1719, with James Figg, of Thame in Oxfordshire developing a national reputation by defeating each of England's most noteworthy competitors to the title; Robert Waldern of London, a Plummer, Timothy Buck of Clare-Market, Rowland Bennet, Tom Stokes, Richard Stinson, Bill Flanders, Christopher Clarkson, and his chief rival; Ned Sutton, from Gravesend.
Many (but not all) of Figg's matches were comprised of sessions featuring sword, broadstaff and cudgel in addition to boxing.

It is believed Figg fought a total of 270 fights and lost only once (perhaps twice). Openly acknowledged as the first bare-knuckle Champion of England, a title Figg claimed in 1719 and held until his retirement eleven years later.
Figg fought in front of European royalty, including George, Prince of Wales, and the future Holy Roman Emperor Francis I, as well as aristoc****, politicians, writers, artists, and actors, and was one of the better-known personages in all of London during his life.


Professional boxing went from an English, Scottish and Irish sport to a truly international sport in a bout held on Jan 20, 1725, when a tall and muscular Venetian Gondolier, Stopa l'Aqua, also known as Tito Alberto di Carini, immensely famous in his homeland as the best of the storied Venetian bridge fighting tradition, was brought to England by the Earl of Bath, William Pulteney, in order to establish international mastery of the Pugilistic arts.
Champion Figg handed off the task to one of his prize students, Bob Whittaker; who came back from a quick knockdown off the stage to stop the big Venetian with an expertly placed body shot; establishing the English method as superior. George, Prince of Wales, watched the fight from a specially constructed royal box.

The first boxing rules were introduced in 1743 by legendary champion Jack Broughton, called simply, the "Broughton's rules". These rules were intended to reduce the number of fatalities in the ring as the sport exploded in popularity.


The Heavyweight Championship became the World Championship on July 29, 1754, when France's giant Monsieur Jean Petit challenged Jack Slack for the title. Slack won the international contest in 25 minutes of fighting, for the now Heavyweight Championship of the World.

The Heavyweight world title broke the color line on December 18, 1810, at Copthorne Gap, near Surrey, as Tom Molineaux, the first fighter from the United States to fight for the world title, fought Tom Cribb, England’s “Champion of Champions” in the first of their two famous fights.

On April 17, 1860, In one of the most important sporting events in history, the English champion was once again matched against his American counterpart in a massive event, when the rivalry between England and America reached the docks of Hampshire, about 60 miles southwest of London. There, a 26-year-old American, John Carmel Heenan went up against the 34-year-old native son “Brighton Titch” Tom Sayers. The clash of the titans lasted over two and a half hours, and both men were still standing when police broke up the fight. Among the escapees in the crowd were Charles ****ens, W.M. Thackeray, and the prime minister himself, Lord Palmerston, who had to face some sharp questions from the Parliament several days later.


I can assure everyone that these historical facts are all true.
And because it's long history is at the root of what makes our sport uniquely important to the world, let's pump the breaks on our cynicism and our thrist for being the "news breaker" of revisionist history; and accept what historians have documented in real time and what is universally accepted today by scholarly research. It's simply the smart path.

Happy New Year to everyone!

[Anomalocaris]

Marvin Hart is a good shout in my opinion or maybe Ali, I just can't make up my mind.

[Rockybigblower]

Charles Martin was the first that came to mind.

How would he fare against Lucas Browne?

[travestyny]

How would he fare against Lucas Browne?

I'm going with Browne.

[Marchegiano]

Let's give a nod to actual, scholarly history for just a moment. My New Years Eve post for all my friends here.
Various permutations of stand-up, (mostly) fists only fighting contests conducted for non lethal military training and entertainment purposes, distinctly apart from ground grappling, existed within many cultures following the fall of Rome and the effective end of the Greco-Roman tradition (Greek pygme, Roman pugilatus), which were outlawed in AD 393 by Roman Emperor Theodosius the Great, as being both unnecessarily violent and a spectacle of Pagan celebration.

But recorded modern boxing began in earnest with an article published in the London Protestant Mercury on January 6, 1681. The story reported an organized bare-knuckle fight between the unnamed London Butcher, and the Footman of Christopher Monck, the 2nd Duke of Albemarle. The butcher won the prize and was proclaimed the "best boxer in England".

The English title began officially in 1719, with James Figg, of Thame in Oxfordshire developing a national reputation by defeating each of England's most noteworthy competitors to the title; Robert Waldern of London, a Plummer, Timothy Buck of Clare-Market, Rowland Bennet, Tom Stokes, Richard Stinson, Bill Flanders, Christopher Clarkson, and his chief rival; Ned Sutton, from Gravesend.
Many (but not all) of Figg's matches were comprised of sessions featuring sword, broadstaff and cudgel in addition to boxing.

It is believed Figg fought a total of 270 fights and lost only once (perhaps twice). Openly acknowledged as the first bare-knuckle Champion of England, a title Figg claimed in 1719 and held until his retirement eleven years later.
Figg fought in front of European royalty, including George, Prince of Wales, and the future Holy Roman Emperor Francis I, as well as aristoc****, politicians, writers, artists, and actors, and was one of the better-known personages in all of London during his life.


Professional boxing went from an English, Scottish and Irish sport to a truly international sport in a bout held on Jan 20, 1725, when a tall and muscular Venetian Gondolier, Stopa l'Aqua, also known as Tito Alberto di Carini, immensely famous in his homeland as the best of the storied Venetian bridge fighting tradition, was brought to England by the Earl of Bath, William Pulteney, in order to establish international mastery of the Pugilistic arts.
Champion Figg handed off the task to one of his prize students, Bob Whittaker; who came back from a quick knockdown off the stage to stop the big Venetian with an expertly placed body shot; establishing the English method as superior. George, Prince of Wales, watched the fight from a specially constructed royal box.

The first boxing rules were introduced in 1743 by legendary champion Jack Broughton, called simply, the "Broughton's rules". These rules were intended to reduce the number of fatalities in the ring as the sport exploded in popularity.


The Heavyweight Championship became the World Championship on July 29, 1754, when France's giant Monsieur Jean Petit challenged Jack Slack for the title. Slack won the international contest in 25 minutes of fighting, for the now Heavyweight Championship of the World.

The Heavyweight world title broke the color line on December 18, 1810, at Copthorne Gap, near Surrey, as Tom Molineaux, the first fighter from the United States to fight for the world title, fought Tom Cribb, England’s “Champion of Champions�?in the first of their two famous fights.

On April 17, 1860, In one of the most important sporting events in history, the English champion was once again matched against his American counterpart in a massive event, when the rivalry between England and America reached the docks of Hampshire, about 60 miles southwest of London. There, a 26-year-old American, John Carmel Heenan went up against the 34-year-old native son “Brighton Titch�?Tom Sayers. The clash of the titans lasted over two and a half hours, and both men were still standing when police broke up the fight. Among the escapees in the crowd were Charles ****ens, W.M. Thackeray, and the prime minister himself, Lord Palmerston, who had to face some sharp questions from the Parliament several days later.


I can assure everyone that these historical facts are all true.
And because it's long history is at the root of what makes our sport uniquely important to the world, let's pump the breaks on our cynicism and our thrist for being the "news breaker" of revisionist history; and accept what historians have documented in real time and what is universally accepted today by scholarly research. It's simply the smart path.

Happy New Year to everyone!

... ... ... You've posted just a heap of revisionist **** while claiming no need for a new revision ... ... ... At me of all people ... ... ...

I know that you know about Peartree, who you also know has been stripped from record by who? Don't call it revisionism though.

You call Figg champion in this thread while talking about Whitaker. ... ... ... Not revisionism? Figg did not announce his student as the champion? And then Figg never called Peartree champion?

No one recognizes Jack Slack today as a world champion. You go on and explain that to me without explaining how historians did a little revision.

Boxing in England starts with Richard Dover. The first "Best Boxer in England" Is the unnamed winner of Dover's 1640s "Olympik" games.

Tito Alberto di Carini is NOT the gondolier's name. His name is lost to history. The source for Tito Alberto di Carini being the name of the venetian gondolier is an internet game based on the d20 system. Where ever you got that name, source it, source that source. you're ending at a video game, I called the creator back in the day for confirmation he made up the name. It is a made up name. Do the research when you feel like it but that's what's going to happen.


Young Sambo and Sambo Sutton are not the same man. No revision needed. It is okay to read Ring mag and believe they are the same man. The historians who correct this mistake are silly and it was ****** to do because history is recorded ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Yup. Makes sense right? Doesn't sound dumb as **** when I lay it out like that huh?




I will not hear any argument that pretends or supposed revision didn't already happen.

Dover = Revisionist

Broughton = Revisionist

Fleischer = Revisionist

Callis = Revisionist


But revision is ****** doe because history is recorded.



How many world title fights were promoted, announced, and conducted like world title fights but are no longer recognized as "legitimate" world title fight because historians have consensus on whose claim was strongest? Not the very ****ing definition of revision is it?

[Bronson66]

... ... ... You've posted just a heap of revisionist **** while claiming no need for a new revision ... ... ... At me of all people ... ... ...

I know that you know about Peartree, who you also know has been stripped from record by who? Don't call it revisionism though.

You call Figg champion in this thread while talking about Whitaker. ... ... ... Not revisionism? Figg did not announce his student as the champion? And then Figg never called Peartree champion?

No one recognizes Jack Slack today as a world champion. You go on and explain that to me without explaining how historians did a little revision.

Boxing in England starts with Richard Dover. The first "Best Boxer in England" Is the unnamed winner of Dover's 1640s "Olympik" games.

Tito Alberto di Carini is NOT the gondolier's name. His name is lost to history. The source for Tito Alberto di Carini being the name of the venetian gondolier is an internet game based on the d20 system. Where ever you got that name, source it, source that source. you're ending at a video game, I called the creator back in the day for confirmation he made up the name. It is a made up name. Do the research when you feel like it but that's what's going to happen.


Young Sambo and Sambo Sutton are not the same man. No revision needed. It is okay to read Ring mag and believe they are the same man. The historians who correct this mistake are silly and it was ****** to do because history is recorded ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Yup. Makes sense right? Doesn't sound dumb as **** when I lay it out like that huh?




I will not hear any argument that pretends or supposed revision didn't already happen.

Dover = Revisionist

Broughton = Revisionist

Fleischer = Revisionist

Callis = Revisionist


But revision is ****** doe because history is recorded.



How many world title fights were promoted, announced, and conducted like world title fights but are no longer recognized as "legitimate" world title fight because historians have consensus on whose claim was strongest? Not the very ****ing definition of revision is it?

Are you familiar with Christopher Shelton's work?

[Marchegiano]

Are you familiar with Christopher Shelton's work?

You're a bit advanced so I never mentioned him to you but he's my favorite for getting people started.

His boxing in the time of christ is decent ancient history overview and his 1722-1888 is an excellent entry into bareknuckle.

That said, ancient stuff comes mostly from ancient sources. Bareknuckle comes mostly from newpapers or magazine sources. Your public library probably has a wealth of source material for you. He really shines for people with little knowledge or those who simply do not feel the need to read source themselves.

For example, you can get descriptions of greece and gymnasium etc. and get a lot more than Chris wrote but also you have to read a butt ton more. You can gather Brooklyn Eagles and Bell's and boxiania and such and get the same info plus a little more but you'll be putting in a lot more time and effort.

So, like secrete inside info and such, nah, Chris has none of that for you, but his work is quality and it is done for you so it has it's place too. IMO.

[Bronson66]

You're a bit advanced so I never mentioned him to you but he's my favorite for getting people started.

His boxing in the time of christ is decent ancient history overview and his 1722-1888 is an excellent entry into bareknuckle.

That said, ancient stuff comes mostly from ancient sources. Bareknuckle comes mostly from newpapers or ****zine sources. Your public library probably has a wealth of source material for you. He really shines for people with little knowledge or those who simply do not feel the need to read source themselves.

For example, you can get descriptions of greece and gymnasium etc. and get a lot more than Chris wrote but also you have to read a butt ton more. You can gather Brooklyn Eagles and Bell's and boxiania and such and get the same info plus a little more but you'll be putting in a lot more time and effort.

So, like secrete inside info and such, nah, Chris has none of that for you, but his work is quality and it is done for you so it has it's place too. IMO.

You just posted I'm ******ed, so which is it , advanced or ******ed ? lol

[Bronson66]

... You've basically given me no limitations bud. You didn't even say world and you straight up said I can dictate who was champion as the answerer. Just, keep that in mind.


Eupolus in 388 BC bribed his way through boxing at the Olympics. He was found out and forced to build statues to honor Zeus.

Tom Spring inherited his belt from Tom Cribb, no fight needed. - Edit- Had to edit this bit out as I was wrong. I had mixed up two different stories about fifty years apart. My B.

Monte Masters getting to be a "champion" because he married the right broad then getting stripped for divorcing her is hilarious

Jem Ward, to this day, is considered the English HW champion from 1825ish to 1837ish. I say "ish" because he was crowned champion in a well known fixed fight, enforced his fixes with his gang and gang violence, held the HW title ransom, vacated and tried to fix the fight for the vacancy but one side refused, being a real fighter vs a stuntman the fighter killed the pawn in the fix. It got so bad the rich people of England had to go to America to foster a rival boxing industry which is why the US belt, rather than any English colony at the time, was the second belt to matter despite being about 100 years away from America rising as a world power.

He was so bad he forced the English to make a rival boxing industry in America. Did not win his belt legitly, did not defend his belt legitimately, did not lose his belt legitimately, he's just a gang leader playing boxing champion.

I might be the only fan, but I really do not think Max or Primo are legit. It's just that the IBU, or European boxing, was a ********ic system that voted for ranking. Italy and Germany, just by coincidence, just happen to have the only HWs in their history to be best in the world at the same time when ******* have the controlling voting block in the ratings board. Spain got it's best representation during the same time when, politically speaking, they were quite close with the other two but not as close as the other two with one another. No disrespect to germany, spain, or italy but that's sus as ****.



Jem is my pick, personally, if just one, but those are all some of my favs.

I'm confused here M,
Didn't Ward win the vacant British Title when he beat Tom Cannon?
Can you tell me what evidence there is that the Cannon fight was fixed please?
And didn't Ward legitimately successfully defend his title against Simon Byrne?