Sports and the importance of size debate

[Dr. Z]

In heavyweight boxing the top has been men of 205+ pounds since the 1990's and virtually everyone is above 6'1". Sure you may find one or two men during the past 30 years outside the permitters, but they are mostly " super heavyweights " dominating. Men over 6'2" tall wights over 220 pounds with at least a 76" reach.


This brings me to other sports besides boxing. Could the athletes of the 1920's -1980's compete today?

Football. Definitely not. The game is based on physicality and the size and speed of the players is much greater in the past. ALL football historians would agree

Baseball. Most of the new breed of top pitchers are taller men who throw 90+ mile an hour fast balls. The angle creates an unfair advantage for them and I hear they might have the lower the mound. The players are all bigger, and stronger in general, just like the heavyweights are today. The debate rages on whether player X can do as well now and he did in his era. I'm not a baseball guy, but I believe no they can not , but the best of them could still play.

Futbol. This sport does not require height or weight which is why a 5'7" man can be one of the best players today. It also does not allow use of your hands unless you play goaltender. At this position height and long arms is an advantage, and you won't find any short players at this spot.

Basketball. In this sport you seldom find many men under 6 feet tall. Obviously height and long arms matter big time. Sure you can find a guard under 6' feet that is the exception but they are uncommon. And they play defense, that is shorter guards that is.

Hockey. The average player now is 61" 205 pounds. The average defenseman is taller and heavier than that. And the goaltenders average 6'2" tall. So size matters here. Players now are much bigger and taller compared to decades past.


These are the major sports. Clearly boxing is different and has 17 weight classes in it which allows men ranging from 99 pounds to + 200 pounds to compete on an even playing field. But in the above sports you won't find men below the middleweight limit.Think about it. Okay if you look really hard enough you might.

Boxing is unique in many ways, including that some historians attach themselves to the past at heavyweight and think they could do well and beat modern athletes. They had a puncher's chance of course, but outside of that the game has passed many men below 6'1" 210 pounds by. Other historians of the above sports openly admit that today's athletes are better. Why can't boxing? Men this size are generally not ranked today at heavyweight and that is the division where there is the most money in general . The reason why men under this size don't opt for heavyweight is they can not do well enough otherwise they would try.

[Willow The Wisp]

Chris Byrd is no bigger than Joe Choyinski and not half as scientific, yet Byrd earned a stoppage TKO over modern sized Vitali Klitschko.

[Ivich]

Chris Byrd is no bigger than Joe Choyinski and not half as scientific, yet Byrd earned a stoppage TKO over modern sized Vitali Klitschko.

Byrd is 6 '2 " and for Vitali weighed 210.3/4lbs ie the same size as Max Baer .

Choynski was 5'11"and seldom scaled over 168lbs .

What fights have you seen of Choynski to make an evaluation about his and Byrd's respective skills?
Vitali retired with an injury you are implying Byrd tko'd him.

[Willie Pep 229]

DIGRESSION

When Ball Down (football) first split in the 1830s into Association Football (Soccer) and Rugby (Rugby Boys School rules), the Association rules originally allowed a player to catch the ball with his hands, but then had to place the ball on the ground and advance it with his foot. Eventually they adjusted the rules making the game all foot and no hands (save the goal keeper, who was then dressed in a different shirt and locked inside a lined box)

The purest form of football (ball down) is played not by the British or Americans but by the Australians.

You can Block, tackle, grab the ball, bat the ball with your hands to gain possession of the ball.

Once clean possession is achieved the other players have to back off and the player with the ball could run a few yards to gain open space but then had to move the ball down field by foot only.

That's why if you ever watch the mayhem you see them kill eachother to gain possession of the ball, then run just a few steps and punt the ball away.

There is a common misnomer that American Football has a direct line back to Rugby.

American football between 1869 through 1879 was played by 'ball down' rules (Australian rules).

Then one day McGill College players (whose schedule was against American colleges,) observed a game of Rugby being played in Canada and sought to include some of the elements into their game, i.e. advancing the ball by running with it.

McGill pitched this new concept to Harvard (1874) who fell in love with the game.

Then in an 1880 meeting of the football clubs, Walter Camp intoduced the concept of the scrimmage to replace the scrum.

The key innovation of the scrimmage was that once a runner was 'fairly down' the play would stop and the team would get a clean un******ed restart, 'snap the ball.' (Three fair downs to gain five yards.)

American football is the only 'clocked' game that has deliberate intermittent play.

Baskerball, hockey, soccer, rugby all have continuous play, only stopping when the ball goes out of bounds or there is a penalty.

This intermittent play is what makes American football unique and allows for each play to have its own dramatic arch, e.g. 'it's 3rd and five,' what play will they call?

Are you not glad I wasted your time with this digression? Sorry!

[Willow The Wisp]

Sorry man, just havi'n a little fun with ya. The texture of most field games has evolved at a much different pace than has boxing. That's a whole adjacent discussion. Heavyweights do get bigger.

[Dr. Z]

Chris Byrd is no bigger than Joe Choyinski and not half as scientific, yet Byrd earned a stoppage TKO over modern sized Vitali Klitschko.

I may find few exceptions , and this one has an big * next to it. Besides no one says who would win Ali with a torn shoulder that requuries surgery or Henry Cooper. Having said that you can engage in this debate. Joe Choyski has not fought in over a 100 years!

[QueensburyRules]

In heavyweight boxing the top has been men of 205+ pounds since the 1990's and virtually everyone is above 6'1". Sure you may find one or two men during the past 30 years outside the permitters, but they are mostly " super heavyweights " dominating. Men over 6'2" tall wights over 220 pounds with at least a 76" reach.


This brings me to other sports besides boxing. Could the athletes of the 1920's -1980's compete today?

Football. Definitely not. The game is based on physicality and the size and speed of the players is much greater in the past. ALL football historians would agree

Baseball. Most of the new breed of top pitchers are taller men who throw 90+ mile an hour fast balls. The angle creates an unfair advantage for them and I hear they might have the lower the mound. The players are all bigger, and stronger in general, just like the heavyweights are today. The debate rages on whether player X can do as well now and he did in his era. I'm not a baseball guy, but I believe no they can not , but the best of them could still play.

Futbol. This sport does not require height or weight which is why a 5'7" man can be one of the best players today. It also does not allow use of your hands unless you play goaltender. At this position height and long arms is an advantage, and you won't find any short players at this spot.

Basketball. In this sport you seldom find many men under 6 feet tall. Obviously height and long arms matter big time. Sure you can find a guard under 6' feet that is the exception but they are uncommon. And they play defense, that is shorter guards that is.

Hockey. The average player now is 61" 205 pounds. The average defenseman is taller and heavier than that. And the goaltenders average 6'2" tall. So size matters here. Players now are much bigger and taller compared to decades past.


These are the major sports. Clearly boxing is different and has 17 weight classes in it which allows men ranging from 99 pounds to + 200 pounds to compete on an even playing field. But in the above sports you won't find men below the middleweight limit.Think about it. Okay if you look really hard enough you might.

Boxing is unique in many ways, including that some historians attach themselves to the past at heavyweight and think they could do well and beat modern athletes. They had a puncher's chance of course, but outside of that the game has passed many men below 6'1" 210 pounds by. Other historians of the above sports openly admit that today's athletes are better. Why can't boxing? Men this size are generally not ranked today at heavyweight and that is the division where there is the most money in general . The reason why men under this size don't opt for heavyweight is they can not do well enough otherwise they would try.

- - Baseball has yet to produce a player of the magnitude of Babe Ruth much less Ty Cobb or Lou Gehrig or Ted Williams.

Basketball has fallen woefully short of Wilt Chamberlain.

No athlete has ever surpassed what Jim Thorpe accomplished in his day.

Noteworthy in that I don't fall into trap of historian echo chambers.

I could go on, but I digress...

[Willow The Wisp]

- - Baseball has yet to produce a player of the magnitude of Babe Ruth much less Ty Cobb or Lou Gehrig or Ted Williams.

Basketball has fallen woefully short of Wilt Chamberlain.

No athlete has ever surpassed what Jim Thorpe accomplished in his day.

Noteworthy in that I don't fall into trap of historian echo chambers.

I could go on, but I digress...

...Eloquence. See?

[GhostofDempsey]

While modern day baseball players are all jacked up looking like football players, it still requires the eye, timing and form to hit a 90 MPH fastball. I think baseball players of 100 years ago could compete today. Babe Ruth swung a 54 ounce bat, I watched some modern home run hitters try swinging it at a home run derby and they couldn’t believe how he could have possibly swung that heavy lumbar and put balls over the fence. I can remember when pitchers played double-headers (Ruth did it when he started out his career as a pitcher)! Now they have pitch counts and get pulled out in the 7th inning.

The heavyweight division is the glory division partly because you can have a 5’10” Mike Tyson blast out a 6’5” 245 pound Olympic Gold Medalist like Tyrell Biggs, or Dempsey the cruiserweight dismantling Willard, or Usyk the blown up cruiser defeating 6’6” Joshua 2x. A lot of boxing insiders were pushing for a Super Heavyweight division when the Klitschkos and Lewis were on top and all these huge HW’s were dominating the sport. It likely would have diluted the division and the talent pool at HW and SHW would have been shallow.

Old time trainers from a century ago talked about drying out their fighters in the 24 hours leading to the same day weigh-ins. Helping a fighter lose 10-15 pounds dehydrating and not eating a bite to make weight for a division they probably should not have been fighting in. I find it humorous when casual fans talk about how much bigger and stronger fights are today. They don’t think 160 pound middleweights were draining down to get there. 160 pounds weighs the same in 1940 as it does today, lol.

[The D3vil]

Dude, look.

Most people stopped growing in 1st world countries 50 years ago, so no, all these athletes aren't just bigger & stronger, they're juiced to the gills

Guys who would've been too big & gassed out because of their size, now have more endurance

Guys who would've been 205 are now 230.