How great was Jack Dempsey?

[Marchegiano]

He was also his ghost writer,that doesn't make him a real boxing person, or one likely to be in a crowded dressing room when Dempsey was only a challenger for the title.When did Brown begin his employment with Dempsey?

Nat Fleischer, later founder of Ring Magazine, was an eyewitness reporter, and related the incident in 50 Years at Ringside, “That question has been discussed time and again by persons incapable of giving a proper answer except through hearsay. I watched the crumbling of the “Pottowatomie Giant”, and after the terrible beating that Willard took, I heard too the many remarks that no human being could deal out so much punishment with padded mitts unless there was something hidden in the gloves. I was at the fight. I saw Jimmy Deforest, Dempsey’s trainer tape Jack’s hands. I watched every move of the men in Jack’s quarters. I think I can clear the atmosphere once and for all with an accurate version of what happened. Jack Dempsey had no loaded gloves, and no plaster of paris over his bandages. I watched the proceedings and the only person who had anything to do with the taping of Jacks’ hands was Deforest. Kearns had nothing to do with it, so his plaster of paris story is simply not true. Deforest himself said that he regarded the stories of Dempsey’s gloves being loaded as libel, calling them “trash” and said he did not apply any foreign substance to them, which I can verify since I watched the taping. It was the 4th of July, it was very hot and he did pour some water on his hands when Jack complained of the heat and that hardened them, but that was all that was done. Kearns began trashing Dempsey after they had a falling out, and that’s all there is to it.”

Historian J.J. Johnston puts the nail in the coffin of the plaster of paris theory with the following observation, “The films show Willard upon entering the ring walking over to Dempsey and examining his hands. That should end any possibility of plaster of paris or any other substance on his hands.”

Dude the leaps you make to refuse things are amazing.

You lost all credibility and your bias is obvious, again. You do this often. You know you are wrong but you're going to criticize the exactness of statements until you're given a very blunt source and then you will criticize the source while framing you own incredibly weak source dripping with allusion as something innocent of all the criticisms you hurl.

Not all credability as a poster or even in this debate, but, **** man, christ, Ned is a journalist. Nat isn't. FFS.



Ghostwriter is some how lesser than plagiarist?!

[Bronson66]

Dude the leaps you make to refuse things are amazing.

You lost all credibility and your bias is obvious, again. You do this often. You know you are wrong but you're going to criticize the exactness of statements until you're given a very blunt source and then you will criticize the source while framing you own incredibly weak source dripping with allusion as something innocent of all the criticisms you hurl.

Not all credability as a poster or even in this debate, but, **** man, christ, Ned is a journalist. Nat isn't. FFS.



Ghostwriter is some how lesser than plagiarist?!

How many books on boxing did Brown write?
How many did Fleischer write?

Do me a favour , don't call me dude.

Better still put me on ignore,because I'm just about fed up with your helter skelter ,off the wall,thought processes, and personal attacks.
Your personal opinions of Fleischer,stated vehemently at every possible opportunity have become extremely boring,whatever he was or wasn't, he did a lot for boxing ,your antipathy towards him not withstanding.

[Marchegiano]

How many books on boxing did Brown write?
How many did Fleischer write?

Do me a favour , don't call me dude.

Better still put me on ignore,because I'm just about fed up with your helter skelter ,off the wall,thought processes, and personal attacks.
Your personal opinions of Fleischer,stated vehemently at every possible opportunity have become extremely boring,whatever he was or wasn't, he did a lot for boxing ,your antipathy towards him not withstanding.

Name a single book Nat wrote and did not steal. Name a single book Nat wrote that does not feature Nat fan fiction presented as fact. Nat's a ****ing conman. Yes I will always be here to point that out every single time you act like he isn't.

Not my fault you're a bit feminine. I don't care. You will not be coddled just because you cry more than others. I don't let anyone cite Nat without pointing out how shaky a source he is, your request for special treatment is denied my dude.

[Bronson66]

Name a single book Nat wrote and did not steal. Name a single book Nat wrote that does not feature Nat fan fiction presented as fact. Nat's a ****ing conman. Yes I will always be here to point that out every single time you act like he isn't.

Not my fault you're a bit feminine. I don't care. You will not be coddled just because you cry more than others. I don't let anyone cite Nat without pointing out how shaky a source he is, your request for special treatment is denied my dude.

Glaukos F O

[Biledriver]

.....

[billeau2]

- - When I was working my heavy bag, I clenched big bolt in my wraps and landed a quick but light flurry. Hurt like h ell, so had I started hard I would've busted my hangs.

Anyway, Dempsey wraps were legit. Kearns was just a typical boxing crook trying to demean Jack who was immensely greater than Kearns after he left him.

Yeah... It is one of those thngs that if you experience you have a slightly different understanding. Actually... It is why some people consider a proper pair of brass knuckles one of the very best weapons one can have.

[billeau2]

I wonder how many here have actually had electric tape on their hands? I have ,your hand feels like you have a brick on the end of your arm .

It all belies the point: it takes some training and preparation to use these items. It is plausible that a boxing trainer might understand how to make a proper cement wrap... but it starts to get way outside the range of Ockham's Razor when some of the additions are discussed.

I am on the fence on friction tape, as I told Travisty way back when this issue really lit the boards up! Sears catalogue had a product still used today, but much less for electric than for bicycles. It is friction tape. Unlike proper electric tape, or modern tape, friction tape has a rough surface area. Is it possible a fighter used this for a wrap? I think it could be used. I just do not know how it would react in the ring.

[billeau2]

I don't think Jack is made or broken by the Willard fight alone.

I don't think holding anything would increase Dempsey's power. I read his book. He knows what a kinematic chain is. He calls it powerline but it's the same damn thing. Add that to what Bill said and it really starts to sound dumb.

Likewise, not the best, easiest, or sneakiest way to cheat Willard.


That said, I hardly read any narrative on the subject including this thread. TBH, the mechanics ... I'm not sure I'd believe them if you had Jack and Jess both agreeing it happened.



As far as electrical tape goes ... you lads sure you are qualified to speak to it? Just gonna throw this out there; the electrical tape everyone is familiar with was rolled out by 3M in like the late 40s. Prior they used cloth, cotton to be specific. Now, 20s, I'm not sure I can speak to in any detail without help, but, as far as I know and for what it's worth, they would have had latex and tar coated cotton tape.

I shouldn't have to say this but I will. Vinyl is WAY different from cotton. Cotton is WAY different from tar coated cotton, so on and so forth, they are all super different materials. Among that vast array of differences one will find they are visually different.

Exactly!! The tape that was available and probably purchased for any sheninagans or otherwise was that friction tape! I actuially looked it up and it was sold for Knob and Tube (the wiring system back in the 20s) with no gloss to speak of. It is sold these days but much less so and primarily for bike repairs.

[billeau2]

So you've given up on the bolt being taped to the glove? As said before (and what has been rewashed ad nauseum), I have certain opinions on Dempsey's career, but I've learned things from many knowledgeable posters that have made me see things differently (not quite all the way yet, but I'm gaining a better understanding)......but the bolt in the glove-loaded gloves against Willard is not one of them. It didn't happen. And for any question marks I've reserved thru the years, this was never one of them.

Give the good doctor time... He will refashion the dolt, I mean bolt in no time! Maybe he can even secure it and give it to the stiff Croat who apparently "just needs to be in shape." Alas... a good dolt like the doctor, I mean a bolt for the hapless Croat might do wonders!

[billeau2]

.....

And..... We are into this hellhole of a topic again!