Why are Rocky Marciano fan's so delusional?

[Ivich]

- - Moorer was undefeated, never KOed with something like a 90% KO ratio.

Big George also BTFO out of Field such that he can no longer hold on to his belts as his KO% nosedive along with his loses.

In short, Big George lost title fights to Ali and Field, but BTFO them so badly they were never the same, losing a couple of battles before winning the WAR

Time to study up...

Foreman BTFO of Ali?

[JAB5239]

Foreman BTFO of Ali?

He's delusional.

[GhostofDempsey]

No Jeffries didnt, read Pollack's book on Jeffries.I dont lie I've no need to I have verified sources to back up my posts unlike yourself who never offers anything but a load of twaddle.

How does it feel ,being in a trio with DrZ and Queensbury?
Jeffries
Hart
Jeannette
Ferguson
Kaufman
Moran
Martin
Johnson
Klon***e
Flynn
McVey
Were not no hopers.
Your hatred blinds you to the facts .

There are multiple sources (most) insisting Jeffries lost anywhere between 70 - 100 pounds after a six year layoff. You cherry-pick one source to fit your agenda.

McVey was 19 and had less than 10 fights when he fought Johnson in each of his bouts. Jeanette had less than 20. Jeffries was washed up after a six year retirement. Kaufman was a white no-hoper. There was nothing special about Ferguson (he lost 1/3rd of his fights), Moran (36-13), Klon***e (24 wins 11 losses KO'd six times and three draws), or Martin (23-10). He lost to Hart and should have lost to Johnson.

[Ivich]

There are multiple sources (most) insisting Jeffries lost anywhere between 70 - 100 pounds after a six year layoff. You cherry-pick one source to fit your agenda.

McVey was 19 and had less than 10 fights when he fought Johnson in each of his bouts. Jeanette had less than 20. Jeffries was washed up after a six year retirement. Kaufman was a white no-hoper. There was nothing special about Ferguson (he lost 1/3rd of his fights), Moran (36-13), Klon***e (24 wins 11 losses KO'd six times and three draws), or Martin (23-10). He lost to Hart and should have lost to Johnson.

Nope, Pollack researches and includes multiple sources, if you are so interested I wonder why you havent read any of his books?
Ferguson has a win over Jeannette.
Johnson has draws with Jeannette , Langford,and McVey.
Martin beat McVey,Childs ,Armstrong,Ferguson,Klon***e,Russell,Craig,Griffin .He was the Colored Heavyweight Champion.
McVey v Jim Johnson
"McVey opened in confident style, with the wide grin of one undertaking an easy task, but this smile faded after the second round, and he set himself for a grim, earnest fight with his quick and tricky oppenent. This Johnson is not only quick, but big and strong as well, and had all the best of the rough work. Sam seldom has had such hustling about. Once he stepped into a right punch that sent him reeling across the ring. It was as much as he could do to put a glove on the elusive Johnson. Johnson early realized that McVey's ripping left hook is his only effective attacking blow. Nine times out of ten he neatly stepped inside it or blocked it with his glove. His guard with his left arm straight out, after the fashion of the old-time champion Heenan, also worried McVey a good deal, for he found it very difficult to get past it." (Washington Post)

The statement was Johnson is known for his wins over fat middleweights who were five feet nothing.
By naming all those I did I demonstrated this is total BOLLOCKS!

[Ivich]

I feel somehow you guys have talked yourself into thinking that 200 lbs is the definition of HW.

When I look at Ivica's list I just picked off the fighters I perceived (along with most observers) the fighters that were, in their day, regarded as HWs. Regardless of their relationship to the magic mark of 200.

The whole weight thing, 200 lbs, is to me a bogus benchmark for HW, which I believe is motivated by judging, in the end, how the fighter would do today. It is just fantasy, not history.

But anyway, why 200 lbs? Is it because it is a round number?

Don't see why 200 lbs is an important benchmark for this debate. Who said it was?

Not me.I just responded to a poster saying Johnson was known for beating up fat middleweights,which is total rubbish.

[GhostofDempsey]

Nope, Pollack researches and includes multiple sources, if you are so interested I wonder why you havent read any of his books?
Ferguson has a win over Jeannette.
Johnson has draws with Jeannette , Langford,and McVey.
Martin beat McVey,Childs ,Armstrong,Ferguson,Klon***e,Russell,Craig,Griffin .He was the Colored Heavyweight Champion.
McVey v Jim Johnson
"McVey opened in confident style, with the wide grin of one undertaking an easy task, but this smile faded after the second round, and he set himself for a grim, earnest fight with his quick and tricky oppenent. This Johnson is not only quick, but big and strong as well, and had all the best of the rough work. Sam seldom has had such hustling about. Once he stepped into a right punch that sent him reeling across the ring. It was as much as he could do to put a glove on the elusive Johnson. Johnson early realized that McVey's ripping left hook is his only effective attacking blow. Nine times out of ten he neatly stepped inside it or blocked it with his glove. His guard with his left arm straight out, after the fashion of the old-time champion Heenan, also worried McVey a good deal, for he found it very difficult to get past it." (Washington Post)

The statement was Johnson is known for his wins over fat middleweights who were five feet nothing.
By naming all those I did I demonstrated this is total BOLLOCKS!

I own both of Pollock’s Dempsey books. I’m aware of his work. Yet, countless historians agree Jeffries lost up to 100 pounds for his Johnson fight.

[Slugfester]

Great post!!! My only disagreement is Jesse Owen's. If he ran today, on today's tracks with today's running shoes and training techniques, medical technology etc. I think he is amongst the best in the world.

But their legs are the same length!!

[Ivich]

I own both of Pollock’s Dempsey books. I’m aware of his work. Yet, countless historians agree Jeffries lost up to 100 pounds for his Johnson fight.

I haven't bought the second vol yet ,but if you have read the 1st you know Pollack includes all the sources he can find,so it isnt just one person saying something its multiple sources . I have the 2Johnson books,in the 1st in which he was kind enough to give me an acknowledgement, the Fitzsimmons one, the 1st Dempsey one and the Jeffries one,all are 1 st class._Pollack ,among his other talents is a historian I don't class many boxing writers as such.Certainly not scribes like Bert Sugar.
So called boxing experts underwhelm me for the most part .On the 28th of June,just a couple of weeks before their fight a straw poll of 12 boxing reporters all picked Jeffries as the better conditioned fighter and tipped him to win over Johnson.Tommy Burns bet his friend promoter H D McIntosh $500 that Jeffries would win,these men were watching the respective fighters workouts Johnson was available to watch every day Jeffries was not so obliging.Fitzsimmons , along with Corbett,picked Jeffries to win as did Langford and Jeannette.
Jeffries had made up his mind to fight Johnson by the beginning of 1909,one quote ,I've found in Pollacks book supports the claim that Jeffries had weighed 300lbs.
Dr Sargeant "Jeffries has made remarkable progress,four months ago he was hog fat and weighed 300lbs,"on weighing him he found Jeffries to be 247lbs.June15th 1909 .
This is a doctor who examined and weighed Jeffries not some writer who wasnt even born when Jeffries was alive!

Jeffries last fight before retiring had been against Munroe for which he was a reported 224lbs,though most thought he was at least 230lbs and photos indicate this to be so.Therefore ,though I've seen,many claim Jeffries weighed as much as 300lbs this would mean he lost about 70lbs not 100lbs , which has been my contention all along.

Ever seen a quote saying Jeffries was 330lbs?

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[QueensburyRules]

Foreman BTFO of Ali?

- - Yup. Ferdie and Herbert forbid the $10/ split purse rematch they got for the first because of the permanent damage done to him.

This can be seen by progressive poor Ali performances starting with Wepner who did a number on Ali's brain stem, the same Wepner novice George KOed after a couple of warm up rounds.

You claim to have a boxing library, yet seemingly untutored...hmmmm...

[Ivich]

- - Yup. Ferdie and Herbert forbid the $10/ split purse rematch they got for the first because of the permanent damage done to him.

This can be seen by progressive poor Ali performances starting with Wepner who did a number on Ali's brain stem, the same Wepner novice George KOed after a couple of warm up rounds.

You claim to have a boxing library, yet seemingly untutored...hmmmm...

I claim nothing.
A few weeks after knocking out Foreman Ali gave an exhibition in London as an added attraction to a fight bill.He sparred with the British champion,and another fighter .I was present ,though a little chubby Ali looked great his reflexes were spot on and when he momentarily opened up on Gardner he made him look amateurish.
No purse bids were ever in place for a rematch and certainly $ 10m was never on the table, at that time Zaire was a one off.
Pacheco never had any say in the choice of Ali's opponents,so little was he listened to that when he sent copies of Ali's physical examination to Herbert and Dundee he was ignored.

You just carry on being the Forum's Fool it's what you are good at,and leave the boxing talk to the adults