Climate change, lobbyists, sanctions and more. Exxon loves democracy!

[siablo14]

Adam my friend, I am genuinely not sure what you're trying to say here... are you saying I shouldn't trust politicains? I don't? Are you saying I shouldn't trust oil companies? I don't? Are you saying that the claims of environmentalists and pressure groups should be treated with scepticism? I agree... so where does that leave us? A planet that is uniequivocally warming and a consensus most likely explanation that a primary cause is human activity, a large part of which is the use of fossil fuels.

Do I believe the oil companies and governemnts will not try to opportunistically profit from any circumstance they find themselves in? Of course they will... that's what they do...

So once again where does that leave us? Do you suggest that none of us attempt to act in ways that might reduce our use of fossil fuels because we are not ourselves climate scientists and there remains a small elemnt of doubt? Or maybe that we should simply not discuss the issue at all...?

And as to latter paragraph I don't even really comprehend what you're saying, made what bed? How has anything in this thread either confirmed or denied anything in our previous conversation? And besides, I gave you no brush off, I acknowledged your expertise in your field and in the properties of the materials you use whilst questioning if you have full knowledge of how these materials might decay once their useable life is over and how the micro and nano plastics they break down into might impact on the natural environment... which you basically brushed over. Have you looked further into the materials I supplied you with and the effects of microplastics in nature? If so maybe we can discuss that in some more detail?

And FWIW if you read my posts I've been clear in saying that there needs to be a transition away from using hydrocarbons as fuels and that it should be conducted in such a way as to minimise harm to the livelihoods of those connected to the industry as well as the broader econmy... in fact it's inevitable that hydrocarbon products will remain with us - there usage in plastics and medicines and a whole raft of oither products makes it inevtable that the petrochemical indusry will continue to thrive although ont a reduced level.

Beyond that.. I don't know what to say.

I'm baffled by your apparent hostility to what is essentially a confirmation of what we already both knew and accepted... that yes, corporations will tell whatever lies are necessary to protect their business interests and will pay politicians to further their aims. Unless... are you offering an arguement or evidence that human actions have played no role in the observable climate changes that the planet is undergoing.

You say you ain't a climate change denier... then what? What is your opinion on what should be done? Business as usual?

Red - I look forward to that unhinged guy's response.

[Citizen Koba]

Red - I look forward to that unhinged guy's response.

I genuinely got a whole lot of time for Adam, think he's got a real interesting and individual take on a lot of issues, but this is one we just kinda get stuck on over and again. The thing is he is a smart enough dude that I'm unwilling to dismiss his opinions but when he got strong feelings on an issue his posts also tend become kinda confusing and it's difficult to decipher what he's actually getting at much less to try to break it down constructively.

[Citizen Koba]

As materials


Some biopolymers- such as , naturally occurring , and can be used as plastics, replacing the need for or based plastics.

Some plastics are now referred to as being 'degradable', 'oxy-degradable' or 'UV-degradable'. This means that they break down when exposed to light or air, but these plastics are still primarily (as much as 98 per cent) -based and are not currently certified as 'biodegradable' under the on Packaging and Packaging Waste (94/62/EC). Biopolymers will break down, and some are suitable for domestic .

Biopolymers (also called renewable polymers) are produced from for use in the packaging industry. Biomass comes from crops such as sugar beet, potatoes or wheat: when used to produce biopolymers, these are classified as . These can be converted in the following pathways:

> Glyconic acid > Polyglyconic acid

> (fermentation) > > (PLA)

> (fermentation) > > >

Many types of packaging can be made from biopolymers: food trays, blown starch pellets for shipping fragile goods, thin films for wrapping.
Environmental impacts


Biopolymers can be sustainable, carbon neutral and are always , because they are made from plant materials which can be grown indefinitely. These plant materials come from agricultural . Therefore, the use of biopolymers would create a industry. In contrast, the feedstocks for polymers derived from petrochemicals will eventually deplete. In addition, biopolymers have the potential to cut and reduce CO₂ quan****** in the atmosphere: this is because the CO₂ released when they degrade can be reabsorbed by crops grown to replace them: this makes them close to .

Biopolymers are biodegradable, and some are also compostable. Some biopolymers are : they are broken down into CO₂ and water by . Some of these biodegradable biopolymers are : they can be put into an industrial composting process and will break down by 90% within six months. Biopolymers that do this can be marked with a 'compostable' symbol, under European Standard EN 13432 (2000). Packaging marked with this symbol can be put into industrial composting processes and will break down within six months or less. An example of a compostable polymer is PLA film under 20μm thick: films which are thicker than that do not qualify as compostable, even though they are "biodegradable". In Europe there is a home composting standard and associated logo that enables consumers to identify and dispose of packaging in their compost heap

Good stuff and should be an essential part of the overall effort to increase renewability and reduce the use of hydrocarbons. Different but related is the movement to use renewable plant based materials much more broadly in other industries, particularly construction.

• The construction sector is responsible for almost 40% of global carbon emissions.
• Renewable materials can help improve the industry’s eco-friendliness, as the production of traditional materials depends on finite resources.
• Luckily, plenty of alternative ideas for renewable materials and efficient recycling management are now available.

[siablo14]

I genuinely got a whole lot of time for Adam, think he's got a real interesting and individual take on a lot of issues, but this is one we just kinda get stuck on over and again. The thing is he is a smart enough dude that I'm unwilling to dismiss his opinions but when he got strong feelings on an issue his posts also tend become kinda confusing and it's difficult to decipher what he's actually getting at much less to try to break it down constructively.

Red - Indeed....

[man down]

Gotta be done with with subject. Unicorn farts guys.