Liston's take on the second Ali fight

[JAB5239]

Sonny's side of the story...

'Clay caught me cold and the count was messed up, and that's all there was to it. Clay knocked me down with a good punch. Anybody can get caught cold in the first round, before you even work up a sweat. And when I was down, Clay stood right over me. No, I never blacked out, not for a second. But I wasn't gonna get up, either, not with him standin' over me. See, you can't get up without puttin' one hand on the floor, and so I couldn't protect myself, and he can hit me on the way up.

So there was Walcott and Clay wrasslin' over me and Walcott finally got him to a corner or somethin', and then I got up and Clay come back and we started back to fightin' again. And Nat Fleischer began wavin' his arms at ringside and Walcott stopped the fight. Nowadays Nat Fleischer says he was just callin' Walcott over to tell him that the timekeeper wanted to see him or somethin', but other people says it was Nat Fleischer stopped the fight.

I was never counted out. I coulda got up even right after I was hit. And I still felt pretty good when I did get up. I mean I could still go on. What Walcott shoulda done, he shoulda sent Cassius to a neutral corner. When the referees call you out in the center of the ring before a fight, they tells you that: go to a neutral corner. And that's when they count you out, not with no fighter standin' right over you. They shouldn't have fighters refereein' no fights no way. They should have people that don't get excited.'

- Sonny Liston

[JAB5239]

Personally I've always seen it this way and agree with Sonny. Many have claimed it was fixed. What say you?

[Dr. Z]

Personally I've always seen it this way and agree with Sonny. Many have claimed it was fixed. What say you?

The fight itself looks like a fix.

1 ) Walcott was incompetent as the ref.

2 ) it was in a small gym, way off the radar from the media

3 ) While Sonny was hit, he could have gotten up, and stubbled around while Walcott screwed up the count. If Sonny says Ali was going to hit him on the way up, get up get hit and take the DQ win, forcing a 3rd fight when Sonny is Champion. This fight had a stink about it before the bell sounded.

Ali himself knew Sonny wasn't hurt as he scream get up, nobody will believe this. He's was right.

[JAB5239]

The fight itself looks like a fix.

1 ) Walcott was incompetent as the ref.

2 ) it was in a small gym, way off the radar from the media

3 ) While Sonny was hit, he could have gotten up, and stubbled around while Walcott screwed up the count. If Sonny says Ali was going to hit him on the way up, get up get hit and take the DQ win, forcing a 3rd fight when Sonny is Champion. This fight had a stink about it before the bell sounded.

Ali himself knew Sonny wasn't hurt as he scream get up, nobody will believe this. He's was right.

Liston said he wasn't hurt. And there is no denying Walcott fumbled the count.

[Dr. Z]

Liston said he wasn't hurt. And there is no denying Walcott fumbled the count.

He wasn't. You could tell as the fight ended with both on their feet. Liston was clearly acting badly.

[GhostofDempsey]

I've always believed both fights were fixed. Especially the rematch. Ali was the charismatic future of boxing (which was in a state of flux--transitioning between fight clubs and live venues to television), and there was no money with Liston as champion. Fans didn't want an ex-con as their HW champ, and Liston didn't have the flash and charisma needed for the television audience.

[Eff Pandas]

Obviously no one can say how hurt he was or wasn't or trust in a fighter saying he was or wasn't hurt cuz fighters aren't always going to let you in on the 100% truth of the matter. But from what I saw it seemed like Walcott dropped the ball majorly with the count & Sonny was able to fight on after the knockdown.

I don't believe it was a fix. If you are fixing a fight & you find yourself on the ground taking a count you don't get up & fight on. That's like rule #1 of fixing a fight ffs.

[Nash out]

I've always believed both fights were fixed. Especially the rematch. Ali was the charismatic future of boxing (which was in a state of flux--transitioning between fight clubs and live venues to television), and there was no money with Liston as champion. Fans didn't want an ex-con as their HW champ, and Liston didn't have the flash and charisma needed for the television audience.

I've seen some of Liston's fights, but never seeked out interviews, etc. Did he not have much of a personality? Or is it just the wrong kind of personality?

Also, what was his fan base like?

[Eff Pandas]

Ali was the charismatic future of boxing

In retrospect sure it might look like that, but at the time Ali was considered a boring runner who talked too fooking much. This was the 1960s ffs. I'm sure plenty of folks didn't want ANY black HW champion & certainly there was no preferred guy let alone a "future of boxing guy" in a fight between a black ex-con & a black braggart. Ali was Ali the whole way, but the fan love of Ali didn't come til later on in his career.

[GhostofDempsey]

In retrospect sure it might look like that, but at the time Ali was considered a boring runner who talked too fooking much. This was the 1960s ffs. I'm sure plenty of folks didn't want ANY black HW champion & certainly there was no preferred guy let alone a "future of boxing guy" in a fight between a black ex-con & a black braggart. Ali was Ali the whole way, but the fan love of Ali didn't come til later on in his career.

As charismatic as he was, he was also brash, which made for good television. Don't think that television networks didn't see the success of pro wrestling having a heel for the fans to get worked up about. The same line of thinking was on the table when they pushed Ali, have a heel that fans will tune in to see, even if they hate him. It got people talking and got people watching. Similar to Floyd. No one was buying Floyd's fights to see him clinch and run to a 12 round boring decision. They wanted to see him lose. It wasn't until later on that Ali's mouth won over a fanbase that loved him for it.