TYSON - Where did it all go wrong?

[Thread Stealer]

hmmm.....

tyson being born into a **** life.

tyson being trained by cus and them to be a fighter but they also didn't do much to improve him as a person.

tyson being crazy.

money.

robin givens.

fame.

don king.

prison.

laziness, overconfidence, probably drink and dope too.

[Aaron K]

ppl taking advantage of him and his lack of judgment.

[newforce]

his lack of brains.

[StarshipTrooper]

Maybe roid rage And I aint talking about the cured by Preperation-H either LOL!

Poet

[The Iron Man]

Where did it go wrong? I'm not really sure it actually went wrong. I don't even have Tyson in my top 12 and there's a reason for it. The Tyson everyone thinks "went wrong" was an illusion: He never actually existed. When you combine media hype with a fighter who gives people what they want (brutal KOs) you have the makings of a fantasy. Mike Tyson looked awesome knocking out tomato cans for most of his career. Fighters who generate lots of offense are invariably built up in people's minds into something greater than they really are. People LIKE offense and they like KOs. They WANT fighters like Tyson to be better than they really are. Tyson wasn't a Potemkin Village the way some over-hyped fighters are: There actually WAS some substance behind it; but he was never the unbeatable monster people built him up to be. He was a very good, very entertaining fighter who fought nearly up to, but not all the way, to his potential. He shouldn't be lamented for not remaining something he never was. Where things DID go wrong was in his personal life where his lack up self-control destroyed him not as a fighter but as a human being. THAT is what should be lamented because it's a sad, sad tale. I don't think Mike is a bad person but I think he never learned to control his base impulses. It truly is a shame and I pity him for what he COULD have been as a human being and what is now lost.

Poet

Little Harsh it think. Tyson was no Illusion, its plan to see his hand speed his power, his Bobbing and Weaving he would have been a champion in any era. And this Tomato can Business! he fought in a better era than alot of other "Greats" remember he fought in the same era more or less as Evander Holyfield, Lewis, Spinks and The Old Foreman. Alot of people he knocked out hadnt been KOd Before or even on the canvas before. Of course he wasnt an unbeatable fighter, but neither was Liston, Foreman, Frazier or Louis, but they still had the same effect on the people as Tyson did, that doesnt make him any worse of a fighter..everyone can be beat. He had more Potential then any heavyweight, and he almost achieved it..and by looking at what he had already achived it would have been amazing too see him reach his full potential. What happen in Tysons Personnal Life affected his career Big Time! i mean he lost two father figures!, a women he loved took his money and accused him of hitting her and being a manic depresant. Then Don King Comes along and offers tyson for all of that to go away for him to be safe again. Rooney was sacked as was Bill Cayton, tysons Skills Diminished and he downfall began, yet he was still able to win two Heavyweight titles at this stage.

Id also Like to add Tyson Beat these "Tomato Cans" More convincingly then both Holyfield and Lewis

[Hawkins]

Little Harsh it think. Tyson was no Illusion, its plan to see his hand speed his power, his Bobbing and Weaving he would have been a champion in any era. And this Tomato can Business! he fought in a better era than alot of other "Greats" remember he fought in the same era more or less as Evander Holyfield, Lewis, Spinks and The Old Foreman. Alot of people he knocked out hadnt been KOd Before or even on the canvas before. Of course he wasnt an unbeatable fighter, but neither was Liston, Foreman, Frazier or Louis, but they still had the same effect on the people as Tyson did, that doesnt make him any worse of a fighter..everyone can be beat. He had more Potential then any heavyweight, and he almost achieved it..and by looking at what he had already achived it would have been amazing too see him reach his full potential. What happen in Tysons Personnal Life affected his career Big Time! i mean he lost two father figures!, a women he loved took his money and accused him of hitting her and being a manic depresant. Then Don King Comes along and offers tyson for all of that to go away for him to be safe again. Rooney was sacked as was Bill Cayton, tysons Skills Diminished and he downfall began, yet he was still able to win two Heavyweight titles at this stage.

Id also Like to add Tyson Beat these "Tomato Cans" More convincingly then both Holyfield and Lewis

To be fair, its no more harsh than all of the overrated claims from Tyson's legions of fans. The fact is Tyson was dominant in an era of weak competition. The same thing plagued Marciano and later Larry Holmes. Thats not Tyson's fault its just a by product of the ultra-competitive 70's heavyweights.

The problems I have with placing Tyson among the 10 best is his two devestating losses in his prime years. The destruction at the hands of Buster and the dismantling by Holyfield. Both fights were ones Tyson was supposed dominate against a never was and a has been but that didn't happen.

Now I know there are kinds of reasons and excuses but ultimately everything that happened to Mike were of his own doing. His downfall was caused by things he did to himself. He could have told Don King to piss off but ultimately he wanted the path of least resistance and that caused his destruction.

It's clear Tyson thought he was above everyone, look at his shoddy training methods and lazy gym work before the Douglas fight.

All of these things add up to Tyson NOT being an all-time, top 10 great.

[StarshipTrooper]

Little Harsh it think. Tyson was no Illusion, its plan to see his hand speed his power, his Bobbing and Weaving he would have been a champion in any era. And this Tomato can Business! he fought in a better era than alot of other "Greats" remember he fought in the same era more or less as Evander Holyfield, Lewis, Spinks and The Old Foreman. Alot of people he knocked out hadnt been KOd Before or even on the canvas before. Of course he wasnt an unbeatable fighter, but neither was Liston, Foreman, Frazier or Louis, but they still had the same effect on the people as Tyson did, that doesnt make him any worse of a fighter..everyone can be beat. He had more Potential then any heavyweight, and he almost achieved it..and by looking at what he had already achived it would have been amazing too see him reach his full potential. What happen in Tysons Personnal Life affected his career Big Time! i mean he lost two father figures!, a women he loved took his money and accused him of hitting her and being a manic depresant. Then Don King Comes along and offers tyson for all of that to go away for him to be safe again. Rooney was sacked as was Bill Cayton, tysons Skills Diminished and he downfall began, yet he was still able to win two Heavyweight titles at this stage.

Id also Like to add Tyson Beat these "Tomato Cans" More convincingly then both Holyfield and Lewis

I really have questions as to how much of an impact Rooney would of actually had if he contiued as Tyson's trainor. Most of reason people believe he would somehow be Tyson's saviour comes from no less than.....Kevin Rooney himself. If you look up shamless self-promoter in the dictionary you'll find Rooney's face there.

As for the era of Tyson's prime (which I would define as from the Ribalta fight through the second Rudduck fight), for the most part is was possibly the second worst (after the current Heavyweight division) I've ever seen. For most of Tyson's prime Holyfield was fighting as a Cruiserweight, Lewis was fighting in the amatuers, Foreman was still fighting club fighters, and Spinks, while a great Light-Heavyweight, was a mediocre Heavyweight. Only a small portion of Tyson's prime was Holyfield a Heavyweight, Lewis was a pro (and even then he was a novice), and Foreman was fighting name fighters. Tyson entered THAT portion of his prime with an ass kicking courtesy of Buster Douglas. Prior to that, Trevor Berbick was a belt holder: That's how bad the division was "gag". I refer to "tomato cans" such as Berbick, Biggs, Tubbs, Williams, and a Thomas who drugs had made into a tomato can. So who were the best fighters he fought? Bonecrusher Smith who refused to fight, Tony Tucker who rocked Tyson's world in the 1st but broke his hand in the 2nd and had no chance after that, Frank Bruno: A good but flawed fighter who matched up all wrong with Tyson, and a 38 year Larry Holmes, way past his prime, not in shape and hadn't fought in two years. This is the "competition" you're extolling.

Poet

[The Iron Man]

Its the time he fought in an he Dominated that era wen he was in his best shape. If he fought dougals while he was in shape and at his best he would of beaten him easy!. If he fought Tomato cans then he beat them in better fashion than lewis and Holyfield. Lewis who struggled with Bruno and was lucky to win! Rooney had tyson respect, he would have been able to train tyson properley, its plain to see how his skills diminished.

As for Two devastating losses, i take it u mean Douglas and Holyfield. Both have their reasons for the loss. But many greats lose in their primes, Lewis lost to two worse Opponents in Rahman and McCall.

Its simple really, it terms of achivement - Tyson is up with the Greats.

In Terms of Attributes - Tyson in up with the greats.

There are losses and not reaching his potential as his only downfall. Which still put him up there despite of this. You judge someones greatness of how great he was, not how great he wasnt. If so Louis, Ali, Lewis, Holyfield would all be judged as incomplete greats. Joe Louis carried on well past his sell by date, but his style made it easier as with Holyfield who now has 9 defeats. Dempsey had the same style as Tyson.. wen he tried to come back look what happend remind while we are on dempsey..which good/decent people did he fight and win? he began his career 0-1-0 and had 11 draws to his name! just some things that are not associated to a great but his still on my list

[Hawkins]

Its the time he fought in an he Dominated that era wen he was in his best shape. If he fought dougals while he was in shape and at his best he would of beaten him easy!. If he fought Tomato cans then he beat them in better fashion than lewis and Holyfield. Lewis who struggled with Bruno and was lucky to win! Rooney had tyson respect, he would have been able to train tyson properley, its plain to see how his skills diminished.

As for Two devastating losses, i take it u mean Douglas and Holyfield. Both have their reasons for the loss. But many greats lose in their primes, Lewis lost to two worse Opponents in Rahman and McCall.

Its simple really, it terms of achivement - Tyson is up with the Greats.

In Terms of Attributes - Tyson in up with the greats.

There are losses and not reaching his potential as his only downfall. Which still put him up there despite of this. You judge someones greatness of how great he was, not how great he wasnt. If so Louis, Ali, Lewis, Holyfield would all be judged as incomplete greats. Joe Louis carried on well past his sell by date, but his style made it easier as with Holyfield who now has 9 defeats. Dempsey had the same style as Tyson.. wen he tried to come back look what happend remind while we are on dempsey..which good/decent people did he fight and win? he began his career 0-1-0 and had 11 draws to his name! just some things that are not associated to a great but his still on my list

Of all those guys you mentioned - other than Lewis - none of them got completely dismantled by guys they were easily supposed to steamroll. Lewis got KO'd by two guys but he came back and rectified it. Tyson couldn't rectify his loss because the choices he made in life robbed him of that opprotunity.

The fact I'm trying to make is that Mike Tyson, although dominant in his era, lost two fights he was supposed to win. Got totally torn apart. Despite what alot of people assert these losses were in his prime years. He wasn't in shape? Whose fault would that be? No one else can make him train and that adds to the overall cloudiness of his legacy.

Everything you point to as excuses or reasons why such and such happened were all perpetuated because of Mike's own decisions. His demise is placed clearly in how own hands.

[Dorian]

Three reasons it all went wrong. The Givens women and Don King. Thats a recipe for disaster.

yep that has something to do with his down fall