Comments Thread For: George Rose targets major 154lbs names for Tim Tszyu but admits Joey Spencer fight is 'do or die'

[crimsonfalcon07]

Would you agree he needs a change of personnel
Seems like his team has brought him as far as possible
I might be wrong but I think he can be salvageable

TBH, I'm not sure. There's some kinds of issues that can only be resolved by the boxer, and they have to be willing to learn and change. Deontay Wilder is a good example of a guy who decided to surround himself with Yes men who just praised him, rather than trying to add more to his game. Imagine if he'd developed a left hook as good as his right. I don't think he'd have lost vs Fury, that's for sure.

I haven't watched Tim's fights again in a while, so I can't speak to what advice his corner was giving him. It's easy to say in retrospect that they should have pulled him out vs Fundora after the cut happened before the fight became official, but I hate second guessing the team on the spot from the couch, as it were, and I don't think Tim would have wanted to, because he fancies himself a throwback tough guy who never quits, and that would have done bad things to his self image.

Here's what he said about that possibility: “For me it was: If you’re going to lose, you’re going to lose that way. I’m not going to try and survive. I was there to win, and the only way to win for me was trying to smash my opponent. To just pull out and forfeit, that’s not my thing. It’s not in my blood. I’d rather die in that ring. That’s the mentality I’ve got.”

Notice that for him, the only possibility is "trying to smash my opponent". He isn't willing to consider other paths to victory.

That Fundora loss wasn't nearly as damaging to him or his career as getting absolutely dog walked by a one-handed Murtazaliev. And even that wouldn't be that bad if he were at 140, 147, or 160. At cruiserweight he could probably jump straight back into a title fight coming off a knockout loss, FFS. But 154 is absolutely stacked.

Changing the team only matters if the fighter is willing to listen and learn, and in my experience the guys who fancy themselves tough guys aren't very good at self-improvement. That's often the sort of guy who bleats about how only hard sparring is worth anything, and then gets knocked the fugh out when they so much as spar someone who's actually halfway decent. And then they leave the gym and you never see them again.

IMO, champion mentality isn't "I'm the toughest/best guy in the world and I'm going to prove it". It's "I want to be the best guy in the world, and I'm going to take fights that make me better and stronger so I can keep testing my level". It's "I'll be a good boxer someday" ala Beterbiev. Here's what Bivol said after losing the first fight: " It was nice, good experience. I was fighting against one of the dangerous fighter and I feel like I did some good performance but I could be much more better and I have some thoughts about where I can improve more." To me, that's champion mentality.

Tim, in contrast, was just talking about "keeping going" and "reaching for the stars", or "finding some answers" after the Murtazaliev loss. He insisted he "still has the skills and style to dominate the division," and said he hadn't rewatched the Fundora fight and wasn't going to rewatch the Murtazaliev fight either because he doesn't "want to relive the feeling again." That sound like a guy who's looking to learn from the loss and improve? He's never discussed the losses with his dad either. So I have serious doubts that changing the team will matter.

In boxing, the fighter hires the team, so if the boxer isn't willing to listen, changing the team won't help at all. Or they may lack the intelligence to put new skills into play. Or sometimes the new team isn't actually experienced enough or smart enough to know how trying to employ new skills will affect the fighter and their style. A couple good examples there would be AJ, who reportedly was a very good listener and learner and tried a lot during his tour of the US gyms, but then went into the fight with Dubois tentative and with his hands way low, made basic beginner mistakes (single midrange sloppy jabs without an exit strategy) and got absolutely creamed. Or, in another sport, Conor McGregor, who did all the boxing training for his fight with Mayweather, came back to MMA with a more squared stance thinking he was going to have better hands, only to go 1-3 in his last 4 fights, in part because the boxing skills actually hindered some of the crucial aspects that made his former style effective.

Personally, until I see Tszyu demonstrate that he can add to his game, I'm of the opinion that we've seen his ceiling, and that won't change with a new team.

[MulaKO]

Tim's corner messed up by not saving him from the unnecessary damage he took in the Fundora fight.

The elbow wasn't intentional from Fundora either, the dude is just freakishly tall for the 154 weight class; and when Fundora naturally brings his guard up, it just so happened to be in the perfect line of sight, right above Timmy's head when he crashed into it.

Just an unfortunate, freakish accident for Tim that may have ruined his career.

Imagine that , took one headbutt so to say , to ruin a career
And yes way to much punishment for no obvious reason either , the fFundora fight
I hope he gets a new corner , I think that would be inevitable this point in his career

[ELPacman]

Tszyu is kind of being written off here. He was winning a fight against Fundora until he wasn't. Despite the blood bath, he was still keeping it quite competitive against Fundora. Though when he fought , the way he wanted to show his ego and try to fight fire with fire against a dude who clearly had superior firepower was a sign of weakness mentally I think. He knew he had to change up his gameplan because he was the weaker man, but wasn't going to except it. Instead he was all over the floor.

So yeah, he had in my eyes, 1 brutal loss. Depending how he comes back from it will determine his future, but I honestly don't think Spencer is the kind of guy to give Tszyu the test he needs. I see Tszyu beating Spencer.

[HandsofIron]

Imagine that , took one headbutt so to say , to ruin a career
And yes way to much punishment for no obvious reason either , the fFundora fight
I hope he gets a new corner , I think that would be inevitable this point in his career

The following, brutal beatdown he took from the Russian was the icing on the cake. Tim might not be the same fighter anymore, punch resistance wise.

[MulaKO]

TBH, I'm not sure. There's some kinds of issues that can only be resolved by the boxer, and they have to be willing to learn and change. Deontay Wilder is a good example of a guy who decided to surround himself with Yes men who just praised him, rather than trying to add more to his game. Imagine if he'd developed a left hook as good as his right. I don't think he'd have lost vs Fury, that's for sure.

I haven't watched Tim's fights again in a while, so I can't speak to what advice his corner was giving him. It's easy to say in retrospect that they should have pulled him out vs Fundora after the cut happened before the fight became official, but I hate second guessing the team on the spot from the couch, as it were, and I don't think Tim would have wanted to, because he fancies himself a throwback tough guy who never quits, and that would have done bad things to his self image.

Here's what he said about that possibility: “For me it was: If you’re going to lose, you’re going to lose that way. I’m not going to try and survive. I was there to win, and the only way to win for me was trying to smash my opponent. To just pull out and forfeit, that’s not my thing. It’s not in my blood. I’d rather die in that ring. That’s the mentality I’ve got.”

Notice that for him, the only possibility is "trying to smash my opponent". He isn't willing to consider other paths to victory.

That Fundora loss wasn't nearly as damaging to him or his career as getting absolutely dog walked by a one-handed Murtazaliev. And even that wouldn't be that bad if he were at 140, 147, or 160. At cruiserweight he could probably jump straight back into a title fight coming off a knockout loss, FFS. But 154 is absolutely stacked.

Changing the team only matters if the fighter is willing to listen and learn, and in my experience the guys who fancy themselves tough guys aren't very good at self-improvement. That's often the sort of guy who bleats about how only hard sparring is worth anything, and then gets knocked the fugh out when they so much as spar someone who's actually halfway decent. And then they leave the gym and you never see them again.

IMO, champion mentality isn't "I'm the toughest/best guy in the world and I'm going to prove it". It's "I want to be the best guy in the world, and I'm going to take fights that make me better and stronger so I can keep testing my level". It's "I'll be a good boxer someday" ala Beterbiev. Here's what Bivol said after losing the first fight: " It was nice, good experience. I was fighting against one of the dangerous fighter and I feel like I did some good performance but I could be much more better and I have some thoughts about where I can improve more." To me, that's champion mentality.

Tim, in contrast, was just talking about "keeping going" and "reaching for the stars", or "finding some answers" after the Murtazaliev loss. He insisted he "still has the skills and style to dominate the division," and said he hadn't rewatched the Fundora fight and wasn't going to rewatch the Murtazaliev fight either because he doesn't "want to relive the feeling again." That sound like a guy who's looking to learn from the loss and improve? He's never discussed the losses with his dad either. So I have serious doubts that changing the team will matter.

In boxing, the fighter hires the team, so if the boxer isn't willing to listen, changing the team won't help at all. Or they may lack the intelligence to put new skills into play. Or sometimes the new team isn't actually experienced enough or smart enough to know how trying to employ new skills will affect the fighter and their style. A couple good examples there would be AJ, who reportedly was a very good listener and learner and tried a lot during his tour of the US gyms, but then went into the fight with Dubois tentative and with his hands way low, made basic beginner mistakes (single midrange sloppy jabs without an exit strategy) and got absolutely creamed. Or, in another sport, Conor McGregor, who did all the boxing training for his fight with Mayweather, came back to MMA with a more squared stance thinking he was going to have better hands, only to go 1-3 in his last 4 fights, in part because the boxing skills actually hindered some of the crucial aspects that made his former style effective.

Personally, until I see Tszyu demonstrate that he can add to his game, I'm of the opinion that we've seen his ceiling, and that won't change with a new team.

Wilde was a one trick pony who surrounded himself with yes men , without a doubt

I’m in belief that his team
has brought as far as they can
Th?evidence go my thinking goes back to the Fundora fight where their comments and actions kind of cemented my thinking
Th?fact that they didn’t have answers for him between rounds , a scapegoat of sort says it all
Throw in the fact that they had him take all that punishment when everyone knew he couldn’t see much through the blood was kind of telling imo
Yes , Tim thrives on that old school mentality and that is why the corner should of been the one to step up and call it a day
He would realized it once reviewing the fight that he was in no way capable of winning , unfortunately
The Murta fight to me was his management’s problem and imo was a fight taken to soon after what he had gone through

[brankobugarski]

Tim's father, Kostya, was able to bounce back from a KO loss to Vince Phillips, rebuild his career and become undisputed at 140. To be fair, Kostya was a far superior specimen to Tim and had more tools in his kit bag to play with (he could box and he could punch) as well as a superior mentality. This fight really is do or die for Tim. I don't think he will change his corner, but I do think he will change his approach and go back to being a more patient, more methodical boxer, rather than just "smash them" guy.

Murtazaliev fight took a lot out of him but it also taught him that he can't just go in there and try to blow everybody out in two rounds. Can he come back? He thinks he can, but we will see how he is going to respond to adversity when he is cracked hard by someone. Will he just fold or will he regroup and keep boxing?

[MulaKO]

The following, brutal beatdown he took from the Russian was the icing on the cake. Tim might not be the same fighter anymore, punch resistance wise.

One of the worst cuts I have ever seen
Location of cut and the leakage

[crimsonfalcon07]

He would realized it once reviewing the fight that he was in no way capable of winning , unfortunately

Except he didn't review the fight and had no plans to ever rewatch the fights he lost. So you tell me if you think that sounds like a fighter who wants to learn and improve.

As for the Murtazaliev fight, Tim asked for that fight. He said Murtazaliev was a "step-aside fighter" who avoids title fights, and thought he would be a stepping stone back to the top, so he got the IBF, which had him as highest ranked contender, to order the fight with him as mandatory.

With all the stuff he said, and since the gameplan wasn't supposed to be to go toe to toe with Murtazaliev, but that's what he defaulted to when the going got tough, I think that's pretty much down to Tim. Your corner can tell you things, but you have to be willing to listen. Tim said himself numerous times that he's only got one answer, and that's to try to smash the other guy. Horse to water, and all that.

[MulaKO]

Except he didn't review the fight and had no plans to ever rewatch the fights he lost. So you tell me if you think that sounds like a fighter who wants to learn and improve.

As for the Murtazaliev fight, Tim asked for that fight. He said Murtazaliev was a "step-aside fighter" who avoids title fights, and thought he would be a stepping stone back to the top, so he got the IBF, which had him as highest ranked contender, to order the fight with him as mandatory.

With all the stuff he said, and since the gameplan wasn't supposed to be to go toe to toe with Murtazaliev, but that's what he defaulted to when the going got tough, I think that's pretty much down to Tim. Your corner can tell you things, but you have to be willing to listen. Tim said himself numerous times that he's only got one answer, and that's to try to smash the other guy. Horse to water, and all that.

Is he one of those who doesn’t watch tape lol
I did not know that
Yes I knew he was the one clamouring for the Murta fight and I thought that wasn’t the smartest thing to do
That furthers my belief that he needs a new corner and maybe even a new manager
It’s ok to demand a fight but that is where his corner comes in and assesses the pros and cons
Use those extra eyes is all I’m saying about that
And yes he sounds like a stubborn fighter , very hard headed to get through

[crimsonfalcon07]

Is he one of those who doesn’t watch tape lol
I did not know that
Yes I knew he was the one clamouring for the Murta fight and I thought that wasn’t the smartest thing to do
That furthers my belief that he needs a new corner and maybe even a new manager
It’s ok to demand a fight but that is where his corner comes in and assesses the pros and cons
Use those extra eyes is all I’m saying about that
And yes he sounds like a stubborn fighter , very hard headed to get through

I mentioned it before. And it's not that he doesn't watch tape. It's that he won't rewatch his losses, which are arguably the most important ones to rewatch and learn from.

He's the one who hires the team. That's one thing that really makes it difficult coaching boxers. They're the boss and where the money comes from. So if they don't want to listen, it doesn't matter who they've got in their corner. The kind of team they choose to surround themselves with tells you a lot about their character as a fighter. And he keeps making choices that say it doesn't matter if he hires the best team in the business; he'll still make dumb choices in the ring and out. Ryan Garcia is another one like that. And when he found someone he wanted to listen to in Mayweather, we got the Garcia version of a shoulder roll, which is one of the worst things I've seen in professional boxing recently.